Hipotronics HV Power Supply

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Jacke
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Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Jacke »

I received a power supply to use for my fusor today, however when i turn on the supply the power light comes on but when I move around the dials and switches the voltage and amperage meters don't do anything. Any idea what the problem could be? Everything inside appears intact.

Hipotronics Model 820-50

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Bob Reite
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Bob Reite »

The voltmeter is indicating 13 KV. Does the meter read that value when the supply is switched off and unplugged?
The more reactive the materials, the more spectacular the failures.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
Jacke
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Jacke »

Bob Reite wrote:The voltmeter is indicating 13 KV. Does the meter read that value when the supply is switched off and unplugged?
When I received the supply the indicator was stuck at 25kv whether it was on or off, the picture is from the auction I bought it from.
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Dennis P Brown »

You say the HV meter isn't working. Do note that without a load, amp gauges always read zero. So you might only have a bad HV meter. In which case you should use a proper high voltage probe on the HV out put of the unit and test it (both polarities.) That would be a definitive test of the unit.

It appears from the picture that the unit had a high voltage arc over from the red wire (see the black scoring on the red shield in that location.) If the arc hit the circuit board across from it, some of those components might have been fried. So you might want to check components in that area for damage. You should try and obtain a schematic for the unit and start tracing the circuits. The meter should not be frozen in position and might need to be replaced entirely. Also, the unit may not put out enough current above 20/25 KV so repairing the unit may be pointless for neutron producing fusor application. You need to check the spec for the unit and determine if the unit is worth repairing unless you have another application in mind. The reason I say this is that the transformer pictured isn't a unit that provides much current in my experience.

I do not like a picture provided by the seller that shows the power light on while the unit falsely showing 13 kV! You should return (if not working) the unit since the picture is misleading and IF the post also said it was working or as is (even if it says no returns since e-bay does not allow misleading photo's and false claims - just a thought.) Of course, if it was sold as non-working or parts only you are out of luck.
Jacke
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Jacke »

I think you are right about the voltage meter, I looked at the black spot on the red shield though and it is actually just a clump of dust.

I think I found what might be an issue, there appears to be a broken resistor in the back of the supply. There is also a black wire which is not connected to anything. I desoldered the part of the broken resistor that was still attached to the supply, it is in the last 2 pictures.
Here are a few pictures: http://imgur.com/a/dsUTj
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Remember that the capacitor (when charged) is lethal so be very careful if you have the unit turned on; also, the resistor(s) to discharge the cap when it is hot may have failed in which case the cap could remain charged. So be very careful when working in the unit.
Jacke
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Jacke »

Any idea of where a chain of resistors like this would connect to? I'm going to try to find replacements for these.

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Richard Hull
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Richard Hull »

That resistor chain looks rather kludged, like some one attempted a repair or modified the system in some fashion.

Good luck on locating the 25 watt, 50,000 ohm wire wounds.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Jacke
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Jacke »

I was able to get new resistors and I did install them but they were not the problem. I think unfortunately it may be the transformer as it does not seem to outputting anything. I removed it from the system and the power supply acted exactly the same as it did when it was installed. Physically I can't find anything else that is broken. http://imgur.com/a/U3zp6
John Futter
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by John Futter »

Jake if you want help you will have to provide a lot more info.

Most HV supplies have an interlock system to enable the supply. this is to keep people safe, the user connects the required pins together through safety switches so that it is not possible to power up unless this circuit is made

Spellmans and Glassman supplies have DB15 or DB 25 connectors that you have to make connections to to make it work

you have not provided any pics of the rear panel or detailed pics of the internals.
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Bob Reite
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Bob Reite »

Or no power is getting to the transformer for some reason, perhaps an open interlock circuit as John has suggested. Now that you have the transformer out of circuit, have you checked it with an ohmmeter yet?
The more reactive the materials, the more spectacular the failures.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
Jerry Biehler
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Jerry Biehler »

I have a version of this supply and it is very old, no interlocks.

What you need to do is take a multimeter and measure the voltage going into the power supply brick, the silver box on the left. It should vary from 0v to 120v as you turn the knob up. If not it is possible some of the protection circuitry is keeping it from powering up. Hipotronics is still around, they might be able to get you schematics, it is really old so dont hold your breath. You can remove the protection circuitry at your own risk, it is to protect the power supply from an overload.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Richard Hull »

Came late to the party. The meter sounds bad for sure. Hippotronics and Universal Voltronics, both, had a great way of working the HV interlock relay. The interlock light came on and the HV light came on when HV was at the terminals. If either bulb was burned out, the interlock relay would not activate and no voltage would appear at the output. It was a visual indicator safety factor as the bulbs were there to tell you DANGER. A burned out bulb could make you think it was safe, so they made a good bulb electrical path as part of the interlock circuit. Check all panel indicator bulb filaments!!!

A burned out bulb will leave the supply as dead as a hammer.

Oh....Even in flawless working order, this supply is worthless for real fusor use.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Jacke
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Jacke »

All the filaments in the bulbs appear to be in the same condition as the one in the ON light, which I known works.

I don't have an ohmmeter/multimeter but I go to a tech school and they have them along with other electrical equipment I can borrow.

I noticed that the "OFF ZERO" and "INTLK OPEN" lights both have these resistors attached to the back of them while the other lights don't. Is this part of the safety system?

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Also, does anyone know what this red piece is?

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Chris Bradley
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Chris Bradley »

Jake Lebovic wrote:I don't have an ohmmeter/multimeter but...
:?

Why haven't you bought one? They're around $3 off ebay, posted. I've seen them cheaper than that, even.
Jerry Biehler
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Jerry Biehler »

Even harbor freight has meters for $2 on sale, you cant hardly get the 9v battery inside them for that price. And they are actually decent meters.

The thing in the picture is what is called a "crowbar". It shorts the output in a fault condition.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Richard Hull »

The resistors are not part of the safety circuit.

Digital VOMs are at Harbor Freight for $5.99. They had a super September sale coupon (limit 10) at $3.99 and I bought 10 of them. Rack 'em and stack 'em.
A seven function meter with transistor tester built in as well.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Considering the complexity and that you lack even the most simple diagnostic devices needed, you should consider just using the "canned" transformer in the system by itself (i.e. remove it) as a high voltage source. I've used these units and they are rated at various values (again, you need a HV probe for a meter if you are serious about working on HV units!) The current from these types of HV canned transformers are rather low (a few ma) but for exciting a plasma, are useful (but not for a serious fusor.) Since all the add on stuff in that case just offers convenience and some degree of safety (when working properly) you should consider this - especially if the HV gauge isn't working on the unit and you do not know how to fix it or the rest of this device. In any case, your #1 test should be of this HV transformer (that it puts out high voltage!) - if that is not working, the whole unit is junk anyway and you are wasting your time.

One point - standard voltmeters do not handle high voltages; some units go up to 1 kV but the unit you have should far exceed that. As such, you need to not just get a volt/ohm meter but a HV probe to attach to it which will allow you to measure these high voltages (often the probes work up to 45 kV and connect directly to any std VOM.)
Jacke
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Jacke »

Ok I have a basic multimeter now. For a HV probe would something like this be good to have?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161388144249?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

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Last edited by Jacke on Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rich Feldman
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Rich Feldman »

Good.

Yes. But you will need to reverse the internal meter connections to read negative kilovolts.

If it's not too late, please copy the ebay picture into your previous post.
That way, your question will make sense after the ebay auction is ancient history.
Many of us old-timers like to find and read years-old threads here.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
Jacke
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Jacke »

Well powering just the transformer and using the HV probe I was able to get a reading of 5kV. So at least I know the transformer isn't completely dead.

EDIT: Plugged it back into the capacitor and got a 11kV reading off the HV cable but accidentally blew one of my new resistors while doing it. I stupidly hooked up the cables from the transformer wrong. I hooked red to red and black to black without thinking about how it was the opposite when I originally got the supply.

EDIT 2: Fixed the problem from before and was able to get the power supply outputting 20kV continuously for 5 minutes. Now to figure out how to fix all the stuff on the control panel.
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Jacke
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Jacke »

Any suggestions for measuring the output current? This meter has a switch for current but there is no manual available online and I can't get it to work.
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Bob Reite
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Bob Reite »

See the FAQ about setting up current measurement for your fusor.
The more reactive the materials, the more spectacular the failures.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Richard Hull »

I am very familiar with those "canned" linear HV supplies. This great familiarity tells me........Forget it! There is little or no real current to be had from such supplies. I am rather stunned that hippotronics would use such a supply, but I guess they figured no one would need more than 5-10ma.

You need "reserve current capabilities" in any fusor supply and that desiderata is not met here.

I see these canned HV supplies at hamfests all the time. ($5-$20) They are never as good as even a crude filtered, DC neon xfrmr supply and a neon supply will not do good fusion. These little canned units are really great for electrostatic motor experiments and such, but don't pack th' gear needed to do real work.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Jacke
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Real name: J

Re: Hipotronics HV Power Supply

Post by Jacke »

Richard Hull wrote:I am very familiar with those "canned" linear HV supplies. This great familiarity tells me........Forget it! There is little or no real current to be had from such supplies. I am rather stunned that hippotronics would use such a supply, but I guess they figured no one would need more than 5-10ma.

You need "reserve current capabilities" in any fusor supply and that desiderata is not met here.

I see these canned HV supplies at hamfests all the time. ($5-$20) They are never as good as even a crude filtered, DC neon xfrmr supply and a neon supply will not do good fusion. These little canned units are really great for electrostatic motor experiments and such, but don't pack th' gear needed to do real work.

Richard Hull
Thats interesting. So why would the current meter on the case go up to 50mA?
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