The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

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Duncan Wilkie
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Duncan Wilkie »

Rich-
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the calculation I did to get the values.
For the coil with a resistance of 160K ohms at .02A, voltage drop is derived from V=IR, so V=. 02*160000,so V=3200V. Power Dissipation is P=IV, so P=.02*3200, so P= 64A.
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Richard Hull »

This is a DC reisitance of a coil and relates to the secondary's "source impedance"' and is a complex issue based on the load type and value. DC figures can't be used accurately on a coil of wire supplying AC in a transformer system. Much also depends on the core and how it is made. To noodle out the complex issues, good instruments and a bit of investigation is needed.

DC Coil resistances only give a clue as to what "might" be their function, and little to do with there actual in-circuit performance, which is based on many other factors.

DC circuits and networks can be taught and learned in a one semester college course. All the ramifications of AC, reactive and HF power circuitry can consume 2 years of upper level college study.

Richard Hull
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Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
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Rich Feldman
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Rich Feldman »

Duncan, your answer to my latest numerical question is correct, except for a petty typographical error.

Drawing 20 mA from an XRT secondary winding that has 160 kΩ of DC resistance will cause the voltage to drop by 3,200 V, and will generate 64 watts of heat in the winding. Those numbers hold for DC or RMS AC. The resistance and copper loss will increase as the winding heats up.

As mentioned before: if you configure a full-wave rectifier, using one HV diode on each secondary winding, each winding would provide half of the average current and get half (not 1/4) of the heating calculated above. Each diode needs to withstand at least twice the fusor voltage. (Same applies to full wave rectifier circuit on a NST in demo fusor FAQ).
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Duncan Wilkie »

Would the next step be to variac the primary way down and see what the ratio of power increase is? Or is there more still to learn before I plug it in?
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Rich Feldman »

>> ... next step be to variac the primary way down and see what the ratio of power increase is?
>> Or is there more still to learn before I plug it in?

I'm still concerned about your very junior level of knowledge about electricity. Transformers do not increase power, in fact they invariably lose some. What's the name (or even just the initials) of your adult mentor who has experience with electrical connections and measurements at voltages over 100 V? Over 300 V?

You could do what I did when I had an unfamiliar x-ray transformer. It's slightly different, in some important ways, from your proposal copied above.

Step 1. Set up instrumentation that can measure AC voltages up to a few thousand. This can be tested, and sensitivity verified, with regular house power. Could be an analog or digital multimeter on an AC volts range, with simple external attenuation as described in FAQs.
Alternative: Set up to measure DC voltages up to a few thousand, and connect it to the _rectifed_ output of your XRT under test. You'll need that anyway for your demo or real fusor.

Step 2. Get your Variac, but don't use it to directly feed any XRT primary, with or without ballast.
Put a step-down transformer in between, that normally reduces house voltage to 12 volts or less. These are common for low-voltage outdoor lighting, and indoor lights that use low-voltage halogen bulbs. Generally have their own fuses on low voltage side. I'd find one rated for at least 50 VA, as opposed to (say) a doorbell transformer, or something out of an inexpensive cordless tool charger. The filament winding of a MOT (2 or 3 volts) might serve, with suitable precautions.

Then you can use most of your variac range, for much better resolution and repeatability, without having to put your XRT properly under oil. You could still die from touching an XRT secondary connection, even with primary voltage much less than 10% of nominal. But it won't jump through (much) air to get you.
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Duncan Wilkie »

Thanks for your response, Rich. I did mean the voltage increase when I said power. Sorry for that careless mistake. I do have a guy, Matt D. who works at the local coal power plant who has helped me in the past and will likely help me with the overall system (i.e. grounding, other things specific to my setup).
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Duncan Wilkie »

Quick question: I would use the full-wave rectification circuits for single-phase 120V 60hz input (standard mains electricity), grounding the positive load-end and using the negative rectified polarity with the instructional circuit seen in the schematic included? Not 100% sure, and I don't want to move on this until I have a plan.
03444.png
Also, are there any specific diodes or diode types I need to deal with fusor-level voltage flow?
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Rich Feldman »

RTFF.
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Dennis P Brown »

As for specific diodes, you just need to be certain they can handle the surge currents (which can be much greater than the normal continuous current.) Of course, the voltage limit of the diode should be around twice the fusor max voltage (remember RMS?)

Aside: I fuse the input voltage of my x-former so that if the primary exceeds an "acceptable" level of input current, the fuse then blows preventing my primary or secondary from exceeding a safe current level that could damage those wire.

I bought 1 amp 20 kV diodes (under $3 each - so I got 20 total for various projects) and used two in series for each of my current paths. These diodes in series should withstand a max voltage of 40 kV. My x-former can easily handle 100 ma for a few minutes so my surge currents can be very high ...since I do not know how high, I error'ed on the cautious side and got those diodes (also, couldn't resist that great price.)

I placed my diodes under oil to improve their cooling but also because I could then use normal wiring and connectors with the diodes to save $$$ and avoid corona problems.

Aside: DO NOT add diodes to a system if you have not, as yet, determined proper wiring of the x-former; that can lead to a bad day for the didoes and it achieves nothing in determining wiring configuration. What people here have told you is outstanding advice - use a very, very low AC input if in doubt about the wiring configuration. AC voltages can start to become deadly very fast. Air grounding occurs quickly and then makes these voltages deadly. Follow HV safety procedures (i.e. one rule is: always assume any source is hot and deadly until proven otherwise!)
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Duncan Wilkie »

So, I finally acquired all of the components necessary to test my supply. I've spent the last few months working, and I've bought the components I believe will enable me to reach the demo phase. So, what I'll do in this post is verify my plan and pose a few questions I have.

The main question I hold is a general uncertainty about connections under oil. Can I use screw terminals? Can I use normal solder joints? My plan for encasing all connections in oil is to use a 5-gallon fish tank I had laying around and just submerging all my components in a configuration kind of like this:
This is the configuration for my supply. The rectifier of 4 20kv 3A diodes is on top of the Plexiglas sheet and below it is my resistor chain of 8 50M resistors. All components will be totally immersed in oil.
This is the configuration for my supply. The rectifier of 4 20kv 3A diodes is on top of the Plexiglas sheet and below it is my resistor chain of 8 50M resistors. All components will be totally immersed in oil.
To test the transformer, I have a variac and a 120vac-12vac step-down which I will connect to pins 5 and 7 (per Richard Hull's post). Then I'll connect 3 and 4 to my diodes and connect pin 8 to the positive reference of my meter. I'll connect the output of the pin 4 diode to the output of the pin 3 diode. The combined outputs of the diodes are the negative potential I'll run into my fusor or in this test the negative input of my metering circuit. I'll put two of my 50M resistors to step the voltage down to something measurable by my DPM.
My variac/step-down setup
My variac/step-down setup
Close image of my diodes and resistors
Close image of my diodes and resistors
My last big question: Will my meter and resistors be sufficient as a load to the voltage?
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Rex Allers »

Duncan,

I hesitate to post because you never acknowledged anything I posted in this thread earlier, but, oh well.

The point of feeding the primary with the combination of the variac and the step-down to 12V transformer is so you can very gradually bring up the primary input from nothing to just a volt or two while measuring the secondary voltage. The secondary voltage should never get above a few hundred volts rms while you are figuring this out. That's the point of the very low primary voltage.

So, you don't need oil and you don't need or want those big diodes while you are figuring out the coils. As long as you are careful, you shouldn't need those high ohm resistors either. All that (oil, diodes, resistive divider) are for later when you have verified enough about the transformer coils to venture into giving it more input AC voltage.

For your first tests, turn the variac up very slowly and watch the AC output on what you expect to be the secondaries with your meter on the highest AC scale. (That looks to be 600V from your pictures.) You should probably use clip leads so you don't have to get your hands close to any dangerous voltages -- clip on the meter, then start to slowly turn up the input voltage from zero.

The goal is to figure out the turns ratio and try to determine the best primary hook-up configuration for feeding it with full 120 or 220 V later.

Much more could be said about the process you might use but I won't waste more time now. I hope this reality check helps a bit. Good luck. Be careful.

Maybe others will have more to say. I think your last diagram posting indicates you don't have a very clear understanding of a practical circuit for the supply you want to make.
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Richard Hull »

Rex is right. I worry about these "quick rinse" assists we are giving to folks who have not the slightest idea or clue related to the electrical/electronic end of things. So many landing here, have found this site on their smart phones or in a link on line and have become enthralled with the fusion quest. Most arrive with, if not zero skill sets, perhaps only one of the many skill sets needed to super this effort. Most, who ultimately succeed, will knuckle down and study, via reading well before they attempt any hands-on work in the more dangerous areas.

The high voltage supply is certainly the most dangerous and immediate effort in the fusion quest. The dangers here far outweight any other of the other fusion cautions and dangers including radiation, gas handling, implosion, etc. While nothing in the average linear HV supply being assembled in this thread goes beyond simple basic electrical skills, having little or no skills in this area is a great danger.

Yet, as Rex, myself and others have constantly noted, it is so very easy to test a suspect transformer and noodle out every single aspect of it. First with an ohm meter to get the lay of the land and then with a variac hooked to a step down xfmr, at least an AC volt meter and to have a number of clip leads on hand. Notes must be taken throughout the process with wire color codes, ohmic readings and finally output voltages.

It would be nice to start with an old Stereo/ Hi Fi transformer or ancient TV transformer that bristled with wires. Noodle out something relatively safe first to get a set of sea legs under you.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Duncan Wilkie »

I feel that I first have to apologize for any perception of my ability as inadequate or lacking, as most of the time it seems to be my incoherency or unclear explanations that lead to these situations. This is my attempt to clarify my goals and what I know and don't know.

I'll first explain how I approach the problem of the fusor electrical system. I understand the general principles behind a transformer, as well as general electricity, but I recognize I have no practical and detailed knowledge of the interactions and circuits inside transformers. I have thus far treated the transformer as a sort of "black box" that takes an input and steps it up to a higher voltage output. I've been reading Faraday and Maxwell in an attempt to understand the foundational principles of electricity, but it takes time to develop the deep understanding I want. I still, however, have very little of the practical knowledge of the internal organization and the specific wiring of these specific types of transformers, or any idea how to gain a proper picture of that (I now understand the concept of discerning the windings from resistance measurements). The apparent gaps in my knowledge are simply a lack of specific practical ability relating to methods which can only be built through experience. My last post was intended as a sort of catch-all depiction of the parts I've acquired in the past couple of months in which I've been off the forums as well as my general plan forward (hence the talk about oil and resistors and diodes). I wasn't sure how much input range I would need to gain an accurate picture of the transformer's power due to the fact that my variac is analog metered, and if that input range would lead to an output of over 600V, I would need to rectify the output and step it down with a resistor chain to measure it with a DC metering DPM. I also wasn't sure if mixing up the inputs would lead to irrevocable damage to my transformer, even at these low voltages. That leads me to how I've been using this thread. I've used it as a place to submit all my thought process to an audience of people who clearly know more than me to ensure I'm not about to either kill myself or give myself a major headache over an expensive broken piece of equipment (and, yes, also as a request for guidance). Maybe the questions I ask, withholding all my assumptions to ensure safety, have lead to the perception of a lack of knowledge. I just want to let you all know I'm not a complete idiot with respect to electricity, and that the best help you can give is specific, practical responses to my questions or a request for clarification. Thanks to all who have helped me for your assistance, patience, and concern for my safety.

Now, my next step will be to take Rex's advice for acquiring information about the turn ratio and the capabilities of my unit. If I assume my transformer to be the standard 40kv, then I can set up a simple equation to find that if I want an output of 600v then I can input 18 volts, assuming the voltage the transformer outputs is linearly related to the input. This assumption just gives me a testable estimate for the transformer step-up to give me a framework to interpret my findings and an expectation for where I can set my input. Going by Richard Hull's interpretation of my resistances, I will record the voltages when power is introduced to combinations of pins 5,6,7 and 9,10,12 which were theorized to both possibly be primary coils with differing inputs for 120 and 220.
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Finn Hammer »

Duncan, all,

Powering an unknown high voltage transformer up, by energizing the primary windings, is probably not the safest thing to do. Even with a 10:1 step down transformer in between, you can be over and out of the DVM range, and what then?.
A safer alternative would be to power the transformer up "in reverse", with the high voltage windings attached to the mains via the variac, and then measure the output at the low end. This method eliminates the risk of generating the high voltages that either kill or damage the dry transformer.

Cheers, Finn Hammer
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Richard Hull
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Richard Hull »

The key point was to use a variac (0-120vac) before the low potential step-down transformer to feed the primary of the HV xfrmr.
The reverse 120v on the secondary might work as well. I would be worried some error could creep in as the primary is nearest to the core and the secondary is on the outside creating a possible coupling error, but it should not heavily impact the result at 60hz .

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Duncan Wilkie »

So, after ordering some more alligator leads, I ran a test on my fusor. I had imperceptible voltages across all points with backwards wiring. I switched my measuring lead to be on 3 and 4, and turned my variac down to under 5 volts, put my inputs on pins 5 and 6, and turned the input on. The output voltage was jumping all over the place (2-10V), and when I removed my leads they were warm to the touch. When I switched the leads to 5 and 7, again keeping the input under 5V, my alligator lead wires began to smoke. I immediately turned off the supply without looking at the voltmeter. I assume the transformer was drawing massive amounts of power on the second test, more than my about 20 gauge cables could handle. The transformer was humming, so I know it was working.

I shall perform a more informing test after fusing the input.
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by John Futter »

Duncan
first check your new alligator leads
I just got some @ work and the leads themselves stick to a magnet ( not the alligator clip the wire itself)
Further check very very lightly copper plated iron wire each lead 2.74 ohms
Seems the Chinese have found a new way to cheat us out of we expect
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Rich Feldman »

>> wires began to smoke.

Welcome to the club, Duncan!


>> I shall perform a more informing test after fusing the input.

Fusion of transformer windings is _not_ what this forum is about.

Did you omit the low voltage transformer between variac and XRT, after at least three of us told you not to? That would be stupid, for more reasons than one. Wallplug transformers generally have fuses built in. I guess so do enclosed variacs. Get some 1 and 2 amp fuses to fit the variac. Get more than a couple of each. They won't protect against high voltage damage/injury from putting high single digit voltage on a XRT primary!

[edit] Hey, you can save fuses by putting a low voltage lamp in series in the primary circuit. How about a small incandescent from your parents' least favorite Christmas tree lights?
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Duncan Wilkie »

Bit of a diagnosis on my problem yesterday: I did some digging into my step-down's wiring and it was designed for use with a dimmer circuit. The state of the transformer without a dimmer circuit is full 120v through the output. So, yeah I ran a calculation and that was approximately 1.6 kV running through connections that were very casual for that voltage. Pretty scary. I ordered a new step-down without the whole dimmer bit, and will return with conclusive results in about a week.

Lesson learned: pay more attention to purchases, and always test before use.
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Duncan Wilkie »

The new step-down yielded strange results as well; all voltages I could find on with inputs on pins 5-12 had highly variable values.
All inputs were at 10V. The highest values for the "highest" portions I show were approximately 100v.
All inputs were at 10V. The highest values for the "highest" portions I show were approximately 100v.
The connections that were under and around a volt actually seemed to be exactly what my input voltage was (input 1V with the step-down, output 1V for the lowest voltage connections).
These findings seem to indicate two primary coils with a 120 and a 240 input.


*EDIT* The "flickering" values were a result of a bad multimeter. I tested it against straight input from my variac, and still the flickering values. I think trying to measure 1.6KV fried it.
Last edited by Duncan Wilkie on Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Rex Allers »

Duncan,

Reread my post of Mar 7 in the middle of this thread. See the one picture where I redrew your node diagram with some extra labels? I highlighted where I think the coils are by coloring the lines red.

So yeah, two primaries, each with a center-tap.

I suggest, put your low voltage AC input across pins 5 and 7. Put your meter common wire on pin 8 and the other meter wire on pin 3 (top of coil).

Slowly ramp up the voltage. I would expect with about 1 Vrms in, you may see about 250 V on pin 3.

If I am right, turn it off and try moving the meter lead from 3 to 4. About the same result with 1 V in?

Now try input across 9 and 12. I would expect again about the same.

What if you jumper (directly connect) 5 with 9, and 7 with 12 and put input 5 to 7?

Extra points for feeding less of the primaries (say 5 to 6) or hooking the two primaries in series (jumper 7 to 9, and input 5 to 12).

Now how do you figure out the turns ratios of primary to secondary?
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Duncan Wilkie »

The output voltage measured between pins 3 and 8 and between pins 4 and 8 was a very stable 400V at 1V input. Similar results were observed with the other primary. However, when jumpering them in parallel, there was only a 100V increase in voltage from the original 400. Jumpering in series yielded a decrease in voltage to ~100V and feeding half of the primary lead to an increase to about 500V. The turns ratio (primary/secondary) is 1:400.
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Duncan Wilkie »

I have a question regarding current metering. The schematic on the FAQ for a center-tapped transformer (here) shows grounding to a metal case. I don't have a metal case on my device. I assume I simply place it in the ground loop of my device, but can I do this with an ac transformer?
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by John Myers »

The center tap of that transformer is grounded to its own metal case.

The meter and sense resistor is connected in between system ground and the metal case of the transformer.
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Re: The Beginnings of a Fusor Electrical System

Post by Duncan Wilkie »

I want to pull together here all I can gather from postings here and ask some final questions to close this discussion. Clearly from resistance measuring the 3 and 4 pins of my transformer are HV outputs and pin 8 was clearly a center tap. The inputs are where the contention lies. Richard Hull had speculated that 120 and 220 volt inputs were differentiated within a single primary, while Rex Allers conjectured the series/parallel configuration of the primaries together was the difference. I would like to know if the voltage measurements I took back in August provided insight into what the true nature of the primaries is.

I have little background in AC circuits. I am, however, familiar with DC and really simply need direction as to where to plug my 0-150v variac for a working fusor. As much as I would love to learn the intricacies of electromagnetism studied by Faraday, Maxwell, and Lawrence, it has been correctly stated that those intricacies require 2+ years of collegiate study well beyond my reach. For the time being, simply have a bit of patience with my ignorance and give me things to measure and report so your minds, more familiar with the field, can help me finish this HV system.

To progress,

Duncan
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