mystery ion gun

For the design and construction details of ion guns, necessary for more advanced designs and lower vacuums.
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dudleyhd
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mystery ion gun

Post by dudleyhd »

hello guys new here but i could use a little help dose any one know what the tube in this is hydrogen oxygen gas and h20 steam flowed thru it i am thinking it is a duoplasmatron but am unsure i could really use your help thank you
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Carl Willis
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Re: mystery ion gun

Post by Carl Willis »

I'm not able to make out any identifiable features from the pic, and I'm also not really able to understand your question. For starters, I see there's a label on the thing. What does it say? Who makes this item? Where did you get it?

I can assure you that steam is not part of the picture...

-Carl
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dudleyhd
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Re: mystery ion gun

Post by dudleyhd »

it is some type of electrostatic generator the case just says danger high voltage and intesity it is not mine i am trying to find out what it is it has something to do with making muons
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Carl Willis
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Re: mystery ion gun

Post by Carl Willis »

Muons??

Muons have a rest mass energy of ~100 MeV / c^2, and must be made from pions which in turn must be made in relativistic proton accelerators (such as linacs large fractions of a mile long).

What your picture shows is quite a bit removed from being a muon-making device. It could indeed be an ion source; all accelerators that make muons need an ion source (kinda like Ferraris need spark plugs).

-Carl
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dudleyhd
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Re: mystery ion gun

Post by dudleyhd »

the gas is ionized and charged with protons from leds then it goes thru this device which im trying to figure out then at some point it goes thru a solenoid magnet im not sure of the sequence if the magnet is first or after this
dudleyhd
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Re: mystery ion gun

Post by dudleyhd »

mr willis could you be kind enought to tell me what kind of accelerator you would use to make muon with the least energy thank you james
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Carl Willis
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Re: mystery ion gun

Post by Carl Willis »

>mr willis could you be kind enought to tell me what kind of accelerator you would use to make >muon with the least energy thank you james

Sure. You'd purchase a proton source (or alternately H-, depending on the current required in the beam), followed by a radio-frequency quadrupole accelerator to capture and bunch the beam and take it up to ~1 MeV. The RFQ would be followed by a drift-tube linac of the interdigital variety and a coupled-cavity accelerator (parts of which may be designed to be superconducting) to bring the beam energy to ~500 MeV where the pion-production cross-sections start to become realistic (e.g. one pion per 10 million incident particles). Pions then decay into the desired muons.

If you can afford a new 747-400 airplane you can get into this kind of hardware. You'll also need the power company to bring you 115 kV / 3-phase feeders straight from the plant. Dreaming is fun...

-Carl
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dudleyhd
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Re: mystery ion gun

Post by dudleyhd »

im sorry i was acttualy tring to make muonic hydrogen is that easyier
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Carl Willis
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Re: mystery ion gun

Post by Carl Willis »

Making muonic hydrogen is no easier than making muons themselves, because you still have to have the muons to make muonic hydrogen. You also need some regular electronic hydrogen--that's the easy part.

-Carl
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dudleyhd
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Re: mystery ion gun

Post by dudleyhd »

okay i guess this dosent make muons i beleieve you i am no physic major im here cause i need help if i put hydrogen oxygen and h2o gas that have protons bonded to them and run it thru plasma under a magnetic feild what dose it make or do thank you for your help so far
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Richard Hull
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Re: mystery ion gun

Post by Richard Hull »

I remained stunned that this love of muons continues and that folks think that you can create muons on a kitchen table. I think, from scratch you are looking at between 10 million and 50 million dollars to make your first muons. They just aren't in the picture for any human experimenter outside of high end, high power academia or Government projects.

Muons are proto matter and not welcome in today's super cooled universe. To make them you need to create a little micro-environment where the muons are brought back into existence for a microsecond or two with conditions being equal to those just after the big bang. No small task.

The age of the muons is long past.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
dudleyhd
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Re: mystery ion gun

Post by dudleyhd »

im sorry guys i dont really know anything about this stuff i was working on something else that led me to this and all of the info lead to it being muons three days ago i didnt know what a muon was but now after what you guys told me it isnt possible so im on to looking at how a fusor works
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Carl Willis
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Re: mystery ion gun

Post by Carl Willis »

Hi Dudley,

No problem on the physics background. You're certainly welcome here: scientific curiosity belongs to people of all backgrounds, not just those anointed with a formal education in physics.

Operating a gas discharge containing water vapor, hydrogen and oxygen in the presence of a magnetic field will make various things: free electrons, various atomic and molecular ions, singlet oxygen, various free radicals, light. Muons are not even energetically possible unless any of the ions exceed the rest mass energy of a muon, ~100 MeV.

I note that muons are frequently part of the explanation for various quack new-energy schemes. The quacks probably read pop science articles about muon-catalyzed fusion (a real phenomenon) and think that they can lend the aura of scientific credibility to their quack efforts by tossing in some explanation involving muons. Of course, to those of us with a rudimentary physics background, these claims are laughable and the full extent of the quackery is instantly laid bare. It sounds like you may have encountered such a quack claim.

-Carl
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dudleyhd
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Re: mystery ion gun

Post by dudleyhd »

thank you for being so nice to me . I belive i have come across that type of situation . This person on the net said that they took H2 O2 or HHO- gas and H2O gas then put it thru photon leds and a solenid magnet . Then it went to that tube he claimed was a magnetron and was pumped up thru the center and electrostaticly charged in some way that it made muonic hydrogen gas. What dose that sound like to you its probably hillarious right good thing. Glad i only have three days reading in to it.

Mr willis given the cobination could you tell me a few combination of what could come out of that chamber is H202 HO H2 O2 O H could it possibly be D20 or something ive never heard about . So i can reasearch what he was doing further . Also how is D2O made from water

The only benfit of this guy misleading me is i found this site i must thank him for that

Thank you James
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Richard Hull
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Re: mystery ion gun

Post by Richard Hull »

Yes, You definitely hit one of those new energy, new age, muon catalyzed fusion fluff sites that Carl mentioned. We have had a few such "believers" arrive here with rather sad results.

Nonetheless, welcome to the discussions here. We tend to do fusion by the book and in well established order by the laws of physics. Not any chance of creating real net fusion energy, but we are doing real, honest d-d fusion, for sure.

Not a glorious undertaking, but a rewarding one for the average successful amateur fusioneer.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Carl Willis
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Re: mystery ion gun

Post by Carl Willis »

Hi James,

>What dose that sound like to you its probably hillarious right

Yep, it's hogwash. This description uses some of the vocabulary, but none of the reality, of physics. I'd be hard-pressed to even believe that an experiment has even been done.

H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide), HO (hydroxyl radicals), H2, O2, O and H are all possible (and likely) chemical byproducts of an electric discharge consuming hydrogen gas, oxygen gas, and water vapor. The processes producing these are chemical, not nuclear.

D2O ("heavy water") is not so much made from water as it is separated from water. A small fraction (~ 0.03% weight) of naturally-occurring hydrogen, such as that constituting water molecules, is the isotope of hydrogen called deuterium (D or H-2). Its physical properties and chemical properties are slightly different from the more prevalent protium (H-1), enabling it to be commercially separated by chemical reactions or electrolysis. Deuterium can be recombined with oxygen to give D2O.

-Carl
Carl Willis
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dudleyhd
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Re: mystery ion gun

Post by dudleyhd »

All the radicals that i listed above are what im looking for . So i just have to make an ion source and get a vacuum pump .Do you have any suggestion on were i could buy the materials to build a farnsworth style ion gun . I can surf the net but im sure you guys have found places that are cheaper than i would find . And some good detailed info. Your help is very appreciated . Also thank Mr willis for your help

This is the type i want to build viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4936#p32244
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