I found out today about government mandated homeland security infrastructure requirements at Abbott Northwestern Hospital. It turns out that we now have to be ready to receive victums of a massive radiation exposure to the general population. The responce generally takes the form of having a team of hospital staff trained to respond to something like a dirty bomb explosion or a few Kg of CS-137 powder sprinkled around the Mall Of America.
The requirements have yet to be clearly defined. But in general we would have protective clothing, double baged Geiger counters, and a room where we could wash down the victims. There has even been some thought to using the swimming pool (20,000 cubic feet of water) in the Rehab Center to manage a large number of victims. The thought is to get the contaments diluted and worry about getting rid of the contaminated water later. It suonds to me that if something like that ever happens it could be a real disaster.
Unfortunately, as a result of my work on the fusor, I have been asked to participate. Any suggestions on how to optomize the respose?
Tom Dressel
Homeland Security Issues
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guest
Re: Homeland Security Issues
The trouble with the "Homey Land" Security as it now exists is that the government has been told for many years now that the country needs to dump out the old nineteen fifties approaches to NBC crisis. The swimming pool suggestion is typical of the simplistic mind set evident in disaster control. They are working out of a scrub and dump playbook that is totally inadequate for the twenty first century. Don't these people realise that Airforce first pointed out this problem back in the early sixties. You will find the nuclear approach (dirty bomb) they preach is go home and button up. ( you have a years worth of supplies plus water don't you?) In case of nuclear attack with real nukes Donald Rumsfield in the eighties recomended to dig a hole and cover it with a wooden door from your house!
Duck and Cover! I doubt much has changed. Their interim solution is pretty simple too.... most people will die outright in an attack so the number of supplies and remedies on hand will be substancially reduced.
Innoculate caregivers indeed! A mixed attack is something they haven't even considered yet!
As you get deeper in this quagmire you will see how bad it really is. There are some solutions out there
but they are related to decomitioning nuclear plants
... IE Three Mile Island. Until someone invents a filter mask that allows you to eat and drink... There are very few solutions short of a disposable space suit setup.
Food will be prepacked into sealed units that can be
hung on the side of the mask. The airlock mechanism takes over to unseal the food box. The food will have to be designed to be edible with no hands! The water flask could simply plug into a service inlet. and piped to the face. You get the idea. These problems have been solved over thirty years ago by NASA. But cheap ventilation and body regulation over very long periods has not been addressed yet. You need millions of them (suits) to save the population at large. Who would you choose in a shortage? They have never been mass produced on that scale yet. I doubt that all the goodies will ever hit Walmart shelves. The closest thing I've seen is a Novex suit ,respirator filter pack unit
and a months k-rations with water. Cost? Try about a grand. What power plant do you intend to use when the main power station is hit?
Grow food? The list of Chinese boxes goes on for as long as the eye can see.
Nuclear Attack (Full Scale)
Satchel nuke
The most a hospital can do is dispense
potassium iodide capsules and allow the
really critically injured radiation cases die as peacefully as possible.
Nuclear Attack (Harassing type)
Dirty bomb
You can wash up to a thousand people without too
much trouble but any higher numbers requires the national guard to be honest. Then starts the onerous city cleanup. All surfaces, roofs, drains, ventilation ,
absorbent surfaces like shrubbery. The cost to remediate the federal post office from anthax took six months and a million dollars of effort. The people have to totally leave during the cleanup. A small suburb or non-govermentally relavent town would be deserted and condemned rather than be reoccuppied. The cost would be just too great to fix it.
Biological Attack
Unless serum is availible and the staff is in protective tents. It is of no use... All will die including staff.
If there is a shortage during treatment the rest will die.
Chemical Attack
Much the same as biological attack.
I'm sorry I just couldn't paint a happy face on this problem... I could have followed the tired old goverment line of don't panick the public.... but one gets tired of all the BS you know.
Tom my advice to you is don't claim to know very much about this stuff... Play follow the leader on this stuff.
There is not really much they can do yet in real time.
I'm afraid it will take a real attack to convince these people to come up with the real deal.
Reading government plans is a sure sleep killer.
Good luck.
Larry Leins
Ex-SAC NBC Guy
Physics Teacher
Duck and Cover! I doubt much has changed. Their interim solution is pretty simple too.... most people will die outright in an attack so the number of supplies and remedies on hand will be substancially reduced.
Innoculate caregivers indeed! A mixed attack is something they haven't even considered yet!
As you get deeper in this quagmire you will see how bad it really is. There are some solutions out there
but they are related to decomitioning nuclear plants
... IE Three Mile Island. Until someone invents a filter mask that allows you to eat and drink... There are very few solutions short of a disposable space suit setup.
Food will be prepacked into sealed units that can be
hung on the side of the mask. The airlock mechanism takes over to unseal the food box. The food will have to be designed to be edible with no hands! The water flask could simply plug into a service inlet. and piped to the face. You get the idea. These problems have been solved over thirty years ago by NASA. But cheap ventilation and body regulation over very long periods has not been addressed yet. You need millions of them (suits) to save the population at large. Who would you choose in a shortage? They have never been mass produced on that scale yet. I doubt that all the goodies will ever hit Walmart shelves. The closest thing I've seen is a Novex suit ,respirator filter pack unit
and a months k-rations with water. Cost? Try about a grand. What power plant do you intend to use when the main power station is hit?
Grow food? The list of Chinese boxes goes on for as long as the eye can see.
Nuclear Attack (Full Scale)
Satchel nuke
The most a hospital can do is dispense
potassium iodide capsules and allow the
really critically injured radiation cases die as peacefully as possible.
Nuclear Attack (Harassing type)
Dirty bomb
You can wash up to a thousand people without too
much trouble but any higher numbers requires the national guard to be honest. Then starts the onerous city cleanup. All surfaces, roofs, drains, ventilation ,
absorbent surfaces like shrubbery. The cost to remediate the federal post office from anthax took six months and a million dollars of effort. The people have to totally leave during the cleanup. A small suburb or non-govermentally relavent town would be deserted and condemned rather than be reoccuppied. The cost would be just too great to fix it.
Biological Attack
Unless serum is availible and the staff is in protective tents. It is of no use... All will die including staff.
If there is a shortage during treatment the rest will die.
Chemical Attack
Much the same as biological attack.
I'm sorry I just couldn't paint a happy face on this problem... I could have followed the tired old goverment line of don't panick the public.... but one gets tired of all the BS you know.
Tom my advice to you is don't claim to know very much about this stuff... Play follow the leader on this stuff.
There is not really much they can do yet in real time.
I'm afraid it will take a real attack to convince these people to come up with the real deal.
Reading government plans is a sure sleep killer.
Good luck.
Larry Leins
Ex-SAC NBC Guy
Physics Teacher
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Tom Dressel
- Posts: 287
- Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2001 4:44 pm
- Real name:
Re: Homeland Security Issues
No question, I am going to be a follower in this case.
The real issue is not to prepare for a thermo neuclar bomb, but a more likely non nuclear explosion with nuclear contamination (dirty bomb), or contamination if the general public with nuclear waste. Dealing with a aftermath of a full scale nuclear attack is unthinkable.
Tom Dressel
The real issue is not to prepare for a thermo neuclar bomb, but a more likely non nuclear explosion with nuclear contamination (dirty bomb), or contamination if the general public with nuclear waste. Dealing with a aftermath of a full scale nuclear attack is unthinkable.
Tom Dressel
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guest
Re: Homeland Security Issues
Don't count out a full scale attack (1 kt up) until that suitcase nuke is safely recovered. I doubt Alkeiada would waste it on the heartland. But NY, Washington DC,Philadelphia, Atlanta, Chaleston ,LA are still prime targets.
The thing that gives me the willies is that if the government makes it hard to get radioactives the
terrorists will just switch to chemical warfare.
A trained chemistry guy can take down a town
of 60,000 people with as little as 300 dollars
spent at the COOP and grocery store.
Larry Leins
Physics Teacher
The thing that gives me the willies is that if the government makes it hard to get radioactives the
terrorists will just switch to chemical warfare.
A trained chemistry guy can take down a town
of 60,000 people with as little as 300 dollars
spent at the COOP and grocery store.
Larry Leins
Physics Teacher
Re: Homeland Security Issues
Thomas Dressel wrote:
>It turns out that we now have to be ready to
>receive victums of a massive radiation exposure
>to the general population.
> ..
>like a dirty bomb explosion or a few Kg of
>CS-137 powder sprinkled around the Mall Of America.
Where do you suppose the proposed terrorists can get
this material, and transport, and handle it so that
they are not killed by it? Have you scientifically
evaluated that material can be effectively dispersed,
and the material will have any significant dose to
anyone not killed by chemical explosive effect?
What is the skenario for those "massive radiation
exposures"? How much is that? Alpha? Gamma?
Hint: The dirty-bomb issue is political.
> It suonds to me that if something like that ever
> happens it could be a real disaster.
"sounds to me" is no base for any action. Science
must be used to evaluate threats. Otherwise you would
start preparing for falling of pink elefants from the
sky too.
> Any suggestions on how to optomize the respose?
Sure. Contact real radiation protection people, and
let THEM calculate if there is any _real_ risk from
any _realistic_ skenario.
The dirty-bomb is a political bluff, just like hitting
NPP with airplane. Not gonna happen, and would have no
significant effect if it happened.
>Unfortunately, as a result of my work on the fusor,
>I have been asked to participate.
Sorry, but that just sounds too incredible. You have
all the permits for the legal operation of the fusor?
Thought not.. If you were to tell of this fusor thing
to any authority, they would have only one legal course
of action.
I'm REALLY surprised noone has yet got into huge
legal trouble because of fusor operation. Even just
running an x-ray tube without permit is illegal, not
to mention producing radioactive isotopes, dispersing
them to air etc..
Kristian Ukkonen.
>It turns out that we now have to be ready to
>receive victums of a massive radiation exposure
>to the general population.
> ..
>like a dirty bomb explosion or a few Kg of
>CS-137 powder sprinkled around the Mall Of America.
Where do you suppose the proposed terrorists can get
this material, and transport, and handle it so that
they are not killed by it? Have you scientifically
evaluated that material can be effectively dispersed,
and the material will have any significant dose to
anyone not killed by chemical explosive effect?
What is the skenario for those "massive radiation
exposures"? How much is that? Alpha? Gamma?
Hint: The dirty-bomb issue is political.
> It suonds to me that if something like that ever
> happens it could be a real disaster.
"sounds to me" is no base for any action. Science
must be used to evaluate threats. Otherwise you would
start preparing for falling of pink elefants from the
sky too.
> Any suggestions on how to optomize the respose?
Sure. Contact real radiation protection people, and
let THEM calculate if there is any _real_ risk from
any _realistic_ skenario.
The dirty-bomb is a political bluff, just like hitting
NPP with airplane. Not gonna happen, and would have no
significant effect if it happened.
>Unfortunately, as a result of my work on the fusor,
>I have been asked to participate.
Sorry, but that just sounds too incredible. You have
all the permits for the legal operation of the fusor?
Thought not.. If you were to tell of this fusor thing
to any authority, they would have only one legal course
of action.
I'm REALLY surprised noone has yet got into huge
legal trouble because of fusor operation. Even just
running an x-ray tube without permit is illegal, not
to mention producing radioactive isotopes, dispersing
them to air etc..
Kristian Ukkonen.
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guest
Re: Homeland Security Issues
It's pretty simple we don't produce enough of any thing yet. We are a technological development internet site devoted to small scale fusion.
If you had bothered to read our posts you would have seen the care we take with our stuff.
The authorities have knowledge of what we are doing and guess what they don't particularly mind.
It is only the rabid safety nazi crowd that is foaming at the mouth. A large number of our members HAVE the background and have access to current researchers in this field to relie on. We help the rest of the group. Your 19" honking big monitor produces more x-rays than our setups. We take the time to shield our stuff. We are safe to the point of boring. I think YOUR demand for licencing is at best a political feel good ploy. You probably wanted to licence computers also.
We are serious grown ups with a goal in mind.
By the way all hospitals have been approached by the Homeland Security Office. Mr. Dressel works at a hospital. Pakistan, India and the former Soviet Union have large unguarded burial dumps of fission products.... it just takes dollars to get at it.
Moving the stuff is not as hard as you seem to think it is.
People who will strap on explosives will have no qualms about moving hot stuff.
We don't like political grandstanding.
This is a serious discussion.
Larry Leins
Physics Teacher
If you had bothered to read our posts you would have seen the care we take with our stuff.
The authorities have knowledge of what we are doing and guess what they don't particularly mind.
It is only the rabid safety nazi crowd that is foaming at the mouth. A large number of our members HAVE the background and have access to current researchers in this field to relie on. We help the rest of the group. Your 19" honking big monitor produces more x-rays than our setups. We take the time to shield our stuff. We are safe to the point of boring. I think YOUR demand for licencing is at best a political feel good ploy. You probably wanted to licence computers also.
We are serious grown ups with a goal in mind.
By the way all hospitals have been approached by the Homeland Security Office. Mr. Dressel works at a hospital. Pakistan, India and the former Soviet Union have large unguarded burial dumps of fission products.... it just takes dollars to get at it.
Moving the stuff is not as hard as you seem to think it is.
People who will strap on explosives will have no qualms about moving hot stuff.
We don't like political grandstanding.
This is a serious discussion.
Larry Leins
Physics Teacher
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Tom Dressel
- Posts: 287
- Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2001 4:44 pm
- Real name:
Re: Homeland Security Issues
The threat is considered real enough to MANDATE that a responce plan be generated by every hospital in a large metropolitan area. The responce plan at ANW is under the control of the head of nuclear medicine who is a PhD in physics. He is also responsible for radiotion safety in the hospital.
Tom Dressel
Tom Dressel
Re: Homeland Security Issues
Thomas Dressel wrote:
> The threat is considered real enough to MANDATE
> that a responce plan be generated by every hospital
> in a large metropolitan area.
Political decision. Just like Nevada state opposing
Yucca mountain site. Facts don't matter.
The response plan is mandated because politicians
want to look good in the eyes of their voters.
They first create a "threat" and then are "heroes"
in handling the "threat".
> The responce plan at
> ANW is under the control of the head of nuclear
> medicine who is a PhD in physics. He is also
> responsible for radiotion safety in the hospital.
Ask the PhD what he thinks about the "threat"..
It is one thing that he must do such plan if
it is required, and another to think that it
is for any real need..
There simply is no plausible scenario.. It doesn't even
matter whether someone could get the radioactive material,
it just isn't plausible to disperse it so as to cause
real damage (enough dose to people) beyond the chemical
explosive damage range.
Don't trust me. Try to find any plausible scenario..
Kristian Ukkonen.
> The threat is considered real enough to MANDATE
> that a responce plan be generated by every hospital
> in a large metropolitan area.
Political decision. Just like Nevada state opposing
Yucca mountain site. Facts don't matter.
The response plan is mandated because politicians
want to look good in the eyes of their voters.
They first create a "threat" and then are "heroes"
in handling the "threat".
> The responce plan at
> ANW is under the control of the head of nuclear
> medicine who is a PhD in physics. He is also
> responsible for radiotion safety in the hospital.
Ask the PhD what he thinks about the "threat"..
It is one thing that he must do such plan if
it is required, and another to think that it
is for any real need..
There simply is no plausible scenario.. It doesn't even
matter whether someone could get the radioactive material,
it just isn't plausible to disperse it so as to cause
real damage (enough dose to people) beyond the chemical
explosive damage range.
Don't trust me. Try to find any plausible scenario..
Kristian Ukkonen.
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Richard Hull
- Moderator
- Posts: 15023
- Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
- Real name: Richard Hull
Re: Homeland Security Issues
Being realistic, I have to agree with Kristian.
I have long felt the dirty bomb issue a super long shot. I doubt that terroists can get hold of a significant quantity of nuclear material of the nature required to make a serious dirty bomb. Oh yes, a lot of DU can still be fished out of the Kuwati theatre, turned to powder and delivered in a medium sized explosive device (most likely scenario) , but DU is heavy even in dust form and relatively easily delt with. It would not widely scatter beyond the bursting radius of the conventional blast.
What you would have is mass hysteria, (as always) with network news people with geiger counters showing how hot the area is, (provided they are allowed in), when it is not really all that bad, etc, adnauseum to freak everyone out and make big news.
With a gamma spec. they will know in about 20 minutes after such a blast exactly what radiological they are dealing with.
I would think a bio or chemical weapon would be vastly more devastating and infinitely more feasible and doable at the terrorist level than a dirty bomb. Of the three, the nuclear dirty bomb would be the least worry assuming they can't get many pounds of nasty, water soluable, long lived nuclides. (real tough without a dedicated reactor producing th' stuff.)
Richard Hull
I have long felt the dirty bomb issue a super long shot. I doubt that terroists can get hold of a significant quantity of nuclear material of the nature required to make a serious dirty bomb. Oh yes, a lot of DU can still be fished out of the Kuwati theatre, turned to powder and delivered in a medium sized explosive device (most likely scenario) , but DU is heavy even in dust form and relatively easily delt with. It would not widely scatter beyond the bursting radius of the conventional blast.
What you would have is mass hysteria, (as always) with network news people with geiger counters showing how hot the area is, (provided they are allowed in), when it is not really all that bad, etc, adnauseum to freak everyone out and make big news.
With a gamma spec. they will know in about 20 minutes after such a blast exactly what radiological they are dealing with.
I would think a bio or chemical weapon would be vastly more devastating and infinitely more feasible and doable at the terrorist level than a dirty bomb. Of the three, the nuclear dirty bomb would be the least worry assuming they can't get many pounds of nasty, water soluable, long lived nuclides. (real tough without a dedicated reactor producing th' stuff.)
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
-
guest
Re: Homeland Security Issues
Panic and random expendatures waiting for the next 9-11are the terrorist's best friends. It might be a non problem to us but the Sierra Club's selling tickets for the end of the world. One of the reasons they talk about the dirty bomb is the fact the other possibilities
are too starkly terrifing to the normal joe. Is this what you mean by political? This is the quietest I've seen my ecological buddies ever.
These cats are filling out their wills.
They have been taught that Radioactives = instant death.
They are petrified and don't leave their houses unless they absolutely have to go.
The media rather clearing up this muddle are the ones mixxing up the muck.
Some home land security... I guess?
I just question the logic behind a defensive policy.
The hub bub spends vast numbers of taxpayer dollars
to be realistic the monies would be better spent overseas. Photograph and ID everyone if you must. But a defense is just not very practical at this time.
Larry Leins
Physics Teacher
are too starkly terrifing to the normal joe. Is this what you mean by political? This is the quietest I've seen my ecological buddies ever.
These cats are filling out their wills.
They have been taught that Radioactives = instant death.
They are petrified and don't leave their houses unless they absolutely have to go.
The media rather clearing up this muddle are the ones mixxing up the muck.
Some home land security... I guess?
I just question the logic behind a defensive policy.
The hub bub spends vast numbers of taxpayer dollars
to be realistic the monies would be better spent overseas. Photograph and ID everyone if you must. But a defense is just not very practical at this time.
Larry Leins
Physics Teacher