Polywell MaGrid uses - Question

It may be difficult to separate "theory" from "application," but let''s see if this helps facilitate the discussion.
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TheoDenhartd
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Polywell MaGrid uses - Question

Post by TheoDenhartd »

Ok, so we know that the MaGrid of a Pollywell uses magnetic rings in a polyhedral shape for Ion confinement.
My question is could a MaGrid be made for general electro-confinement ?

for instance could i use a similar polyhedral grid to levitate a small sphere of metal?
.... if so how would i go about increasing the magnetic confinement pressure?

Assuming that i am able to suspend and confine the metal ball simultaneously, using only the modified magrid, how could i gradually induce an induction effect to heat and eventually turn the once metal sphere into a molten mass?
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Richard Hull
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Re: Polywell MaGrid uses - Question

Post by Richard Hull »

No, you cannot do what you wish to do. Even if you could, you would only work with the ferro magnetics Fe, Co, Ni, balls, but you can't so there.

Induction AC heating and melting of most all metals is common in the industry, but many of these are non-magnetic. Nickel hits its curie point long before melting and this is a non-starter.

The energy required to do what you are talking about would be tremendous and beyond the amateur's purse and ability to fabricate and have function.

You certainly levitate any of the pure ferromagnetics provided they are small and it wouldn't take a MaGrid to do that. You could even induction heat them to melting, but they would have to rotate to keep their shape. (no way to do that easily)

Why don't you try this expensive, power hungry idea and get back to us to report your results. Lots of engineering ahead of you.

Richard Hull
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Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
TheoDenhartd
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Re: Polywell MaGrid uses - Question

Post by TheoDenhartd »

Now exactly what cant i do?

I know for a fact levitation is possible .... i know induction is possible...hmmm

Is it the fact that i wanted to use a Magrid? or is it the magnetic confinement?
If its because of the Magrid idea that can be scratched, but are you saying an apparatus like this is nearly impossible or just expensive?

http://youtu.be/Q6Zrnv4OtbU

take this video for instance, would applying a uniform magnetic force inward towards the core of the object be possible ?
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Richard Hull
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Re: Polywell MaGrid uses - Question

Post by Richard Hull »

I can't see where you are going with this idea of yours. What is the ultimate goal of levitating molten metal and confining it magnetically even more? Have you calculated the amount of energy you would need to achieve a certain level of compression in levitated molten metal? Before you spend one dime in construction, I suggest you do so.

Many things are possible. Whether they are readily doable is another matter. Like I say, do it and report back to us. It is your idea....Run with it. Heck, the fusion boys with doctroates have had a ton of ideas and spent billions for many, many years and you see where we are using real physics don't you?

Try out you idea. You will learn a lot in the process about what is and is not possible and spend a gang o' bucks, too. Education is always costly, often in money and time. Ideas are always free and fall upon us like the rain, and blow in like wind over the decks. Like the wind and the rain, they sweep over us and are soon gone and forgotten.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Dan Tibbets
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Re: Polywell MaGrid uses - Question

Post by Dan Tibbets »

Look for Levitated dipole,I'm not sure if this is anything similar to what you are pursuing, but this work by Miley and others might give you some ideas. As for the Polywell Magrid it is a magnetic configuration that is used to confine electrons, not ions. Electrons are much easier to magnetically confine because the electrons are much lighter, have a much smaller resultant gyro radius (Lamar radius) and thus less problems with ExB drift which is a major limiting factor for Tokamaks and other neutral plasma magnetic confinement schemes. The Polywell injects excess electrons which are magnetically trapped. These excess electrons in this resultant non neutral plasma, then confines the ions electrostatically (with a potential well). The ions are not confined magnetically at all (at least not as the dominate confinement method). This, among other things is at the root of the Polywell scheme.

PS: You might suspend a ball of magnetic material in magnetic fields, things like iron or nickel, but things like carbon, boron, deuterium, tritium, hydrogen, helium, etc are not magnetic and cannot be suspended or confined magnetically by normal means. Once converted to a gaseous plasma where all or most of the particles are ionized is a different story.
You might be confusing inertial confinement of a pellet that is compressed by laser heating or a magnetic pinch, or explosives. This is the classic bomb approach- also General Fusion's and DPF's approach, but this is much different from inertial electrostatic confinement, as implemented in Fusors or Polywells. Here the key is not mashing everything together to such stupendous densities that fusion can progress before the inertia is overcome and the bomb flies apart. In fusors, while density plays a role, the goal is to have the fuel circulate many times so that fusion can eventually occur before the particles finally escape or hit something solid.


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Chris Bradley
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Re: Polywell MaGrid uses - Question

Post by Chris Bradley »

Dan Tibbets wrote: You might suspend a ball of magnetic material in magnetic fields, things like iron or nickel, but things like carbon, boron, deuterium, tritium, hydrogen, helium, etc are not magnetic and cannot be suspended or confined magnetically by normal means.
On the contrary, most 'non-magnetic' materials are diamagnetic, which is ideal for creating a passively levitated object (rather than a paramagnetic material which requires control feedback to levitate it).

(In fact, to be technically precise, all materials have diamagnetic properties, but the para- ferro-, ferri- and antiferro-magnetic properties of materials [I think that covers the lot?] may dominate.)

Diamagnetic materials create an opposing magnetic field to an applied field. You don't usually see this with 'common' materials until the magnetic field reaches ~15 T or so. But all materials, AFAIK, will exhibit this effect if the field is high enough.

The classic visual example being 'the frog' .... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1vyB-O5i6E
Jeroen Vriesman
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Re: Polywell MaGrid uses - Question

Post by Jeroen Vriesman »

A fun experiment with diamagnetism is bismuth levitation:

http://www.unitednuclear.com/index.php? ... cts_id=526
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Richard Hull
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Re: Polywell MaGrid uses - Question

Post by Richard Hull »

Of course, bismuth is not levitated at all here. A super NIB magnet is levitated via the biasing field overhead and the large mass of bismuth tighly sandwiched above and below the floating NIB magnet. Bismuth is the most diamagnetic of all metals and its diamagnetism is extremely weak to such a degree that only a 1 tesla or greater field can be used to demo its effects, thus the need for the NIB magnet in an external biasing field.

This experiment was featured on my old website back in the late 90's.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Michael R Cole
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Re: Polywell MaGrid uses - Question

Post by Michael R Cole »

Aluminum is a paramagnetic enough material that I one time tried to find a dropped steel part in some aluminum machine tool tailings and chips with a permanent magnet and what happened was that the finer chips smothered the magnet. The itty bitty chips even aligned with the magnetic field of the permanent magnet.

Al permeability about 3.2 times vacuum or air
Hysteresis loss essentially zero
Saturation limit > 4 Tesla

Electrical coductivity: good both as kilowatthour disks and as wires provided that you use silicon carbide abrasive paper, elbow grease, and listed antioxidant electrical grease. I one time hooked a 60,000 watt plastics machine with aluminum that way. Al wiring ran cool, copper wiring that came with the machine broke down twice first 2 months of the machines life.

All of these properties make aluminum the best material for the disk of a kilowatthour meter - of any practical material it produces the most amount of torque in an eddy current motor.
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