a couple of thoughts and theorys to make you think.

It may be difficult to separate "theory" from "application," but let''s see if this helps facilitate the discussion.
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steventw
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a couple of thoughts and theorys to make you think.

Post by steventw »

ok well i done a lot of reading over years on fusor/tokamac's
everything i've read seem to lack one of the basic concepts all seem to points to throw more power at it and add more heat from external souce's.
done alot of thinking.
with fusor, seem to need to add alot of power to get anything to happen with the little bit of fual added in, and everything suggest bigger is better and more power in.

well if you look at basic concepts of the sun. its not throwing more power in or more fuel. just big magnetic fields holding it and applying pressure around big ball of plasma.
and i thought we mastered heat and fire back in the caves rubbing 2 sticks together.

now if plasma is just a lot of particles moving around. well there is movement.
but wheres the friction. cant just hold 2 sticks together and move them around and expect fire...
need a little force/friction and push them together a bit more.
i guess that's where the extra power go's in fusor's, more power into the grid. bigger the magnetic field so eventually field gets large enough to start rubbing the plasma together.
example would be, put one hand around wrist and hold it... now move wrist around.... tighter your grip on your wrist, faster it will heat with movement.
so if decreasing the size of grids. or atleast inner grid. adding more fuel, and filling the area of inner grid to point slight pressure around plasma against magnetic field. shouldn't it start to heat itself with all the energy and movement of plasma.
cause if you only half fill your bubble hows it going to do much aside from sit there without any pressure to help basic concept of generating heat.
might as-well just throw your stick down hall way and waste your energy cause you know its not going to do much....

anyway that my general theorys that i've been thinking is lacking with everything that i've seen online.

steven whittam

ps. don't just dismiss as rubbish unless you have done the experiment yourself. because theory and what you read is never 100% accurate unless tested and seen for yourself. because its easy for anyone to throw everyone off online with just a few words with no facts.
steventw
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Re: a couple of thoughts and theorys to make you think.

Post by steventw »

ok question.

at what input of power does plasma start to form?
in theory would be determined by distance between inner and outer grid.

theoretically would start to form when fields of inner and outer grids connect. because if there are fuel losses hitting outer wall , then in theory there are ions and electrons being created depending what side of field's the fuel is when grids switched on and particles get charged and head for the grid that attracts them.
if this is the case, it would just be a case of injecting fuel on the right side of the half way line where the 2 fields meet to create the correct type of ion or electron depending on grid arrangement to minimize losses.
if needs to be on inner grid side. well would need some kind of magnetic shielding around fuel pipe to feed into correct side for plasma creation efficiency, or a improved grid design to allow fuel to be fed into correct side of fields for improved plasma creation.

something to think on.

steven whittam
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Chris Bradley
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Re: a couple of thoughts and theorys to make you think.

Post by Chris Bradley »

You are evidently at the very start of thinking about looking into thinking about fusion and plasmas. It might be better to start from what you know, and ask questions from there.
steventw wrote:at what input of power does plasma start to form?
If you are talking about the point at which electrons and ions are liberated (is it?) the answer is '0 W'.
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Richard Hull
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Re: a couple of thoughts and theorys to make you think.

Post by Richard Hull »

There is effectively zero magnetic field in a working fusor even at 60,000 volts at 10ma. The fusor plasma is, in effect, a single conductor and with 10ma flowing you are looking a 10 milligauss. Apparently you are linking this to a tokomak in some fashion. There is no magnetic field in a fusor.

Please do not hassle us about doing an experiment before coming down on your ideas. Why don't you do the experiment? Some of us already have working fusion reactors and have a good idea about how they work and their limitations and what certain modification are most likely to do or not do.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Dan Tibbets
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Re: a couple of thoughts and theorys to make you think.

Post by Dan Tibbets »

Magnetic fields 'pushing' on plasma is certainly a component of many configurations , but as mentioned, it is not a part of a standard fusor. Admittedly, though some have toyed with the idea of magnetic shielding, or even magnetic fields to contain the electrons, forming a virtual cathode without the grids getting in the way. Perhaps significantly greater densities can even be obtained. But past this you picture of a star is confused. It is gravity that drives the system. While tremendous magnetic energies are generated and descharged, this is due to the dynamo effect of the rotating charged particles. It is powered by the gravitational collapse in part, and mostly by the fusion heat generated. As the gas collapses under gravity, the density goes up, the particles rub against each other more and heat is generated. This is all driven by gravity. Once the temperature is high enough and the density is great enough, the fusion of hydrogen, etc. becomes the dominate source of heat. This supports the core of the star against further gravitational collapse and the star is relatively stable and is on the main sequence. Magnetic fields help to transfer energy from the inside of the star to the thin atmosphere (corona) and heats it in interesting and not fully understood ways, but this is not a generater of significant fusion. The temperature is perhaps 1 tenth of the solar core, but more importantly, the density is only ~ 1 billionth or smaller.
In neutron stars or black holes feeding on another star, the accretion disk is heated by friction, and magnetic fields are also involved, This gas/ plasma gets so hot that it glows in hard x-rays, mostly due to the friction as I understand it. Again though the driver for this accretion disk is gravity, not fusion. I have never seen any mention of fusion occuring in an accretion disk. It may be plenty hot enough, but the density is again much less than that in a core of a star. Keep in mind that gravity can generate much more heat than fusion if the gravity well is great enough. A super massive black hole in the center of a galaxy might approach the energy release of mater- antimatter annihilation as gas falls into it.

Gravity is what drives stars, magnetic fields are along for the ride. Various fusion schemes attempts to contain and compact plasma in order to achieve useful fusion, but thus far....

A fusor is somewhat similar to gravity driven fusion. The plasma/ ions are accelerated (heated) towards a core and has a somewhat spherical shape. As the charged particles move in and out they tend to cancel the particle induced magnetic fields. Thus a well focused fusor (central confluence) has even less of a magnetic field than just calculating the current and number of turns (one?). This is different in schemes where the charged particles have a preferred direction, such a rotating in one direction about a torus, like in a Tokamak. There a significant magnetic field can be generated by the plasma. Fusors tend to be non magnetic plasmas and this is fundamentally different than magnetized plasma machines like Tokamaks. Do keep in mind that this is a simple generalization, and even non magnetized plasmas can exert a pressure on magnetic fields (eg: the Polywell).

Also, keep in mind that gravitational containment and heating and compression, is similar to inertial compression in some ways, but far different in others.

Dan Tibbets
steventw
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Re: a couple of thoughts and theorys to make you think.

Post by steventw »

hardest thing in life is finding the correct words and meanings to explain in a way someone else will understand.
given everyone is different and generally far away and raised in a different part of world that most of the time have a slightly different understanding and definitions to things.

for Richard Hull.
Unfortunately, i'm not thinking of a Tokamak.
Sorry i guess i should use proper term and say "electric field" instead of magnetic.
So just replace "magnetic field" in first few posts with "electric field"
Sorry, no Hassle intended, i guess i could of worded a little better, i just understand how some people can jump to reply to something without any facts.
Just trying to share some theory's that been running thought my head on what i have read online and videos of experiments i have watched over the years.
I kind of just trying to link all the information i have seen and help improve the gaps in some that are answered elsewhere to help and bridge the gap.

For Chris Bradley
I've have been thinking about fusion and plasmas for about 7 years and researching online during that time off and on.
"0 W" ? 0 Watts would be my first thought. If you could please elaborate on that?

For Dan Tibbets.
Very interesting.
But flaw there is if you where to recreate that on earth you might run into a few problems if you start creating a big gravity well.
I don't think i've ever read anywhere about gravity playing part in a fusor confinement of the plasma.
basically from everything i have read. in theory same basic principles apply to an electric field as a magnetic one.
just magnets generally have a + and - side, where as an electric current running through wire grids only have a + or - charge depending on what you plug your + or - to.
so if your hook your + to one grid it should give off a positive electric field and other grid - will yeild a negative electric field.
so theoretically the rules of attraction and repulsion still apply.
Just had quick look online to double check something and basic fusors have 2 modes, defined by the grid configuration. either + inside and - outside, or - inside and + outside.

just had a thought. just watched few videos of some fusor experiments been awhile since i sat and watched.
Generally every fusor when they are turned on, there's isnt really any sign of anything moving to center from outside of grid, there is one i watched with a nice light show of grids sparking like being hit.
generally grids just start to glow and plasma appears in center and intensify's with current.

Just thought of a good question which i noticed in all these videos.
How do people expect to keep there fuel inside with there pumps still going sucking everything out, when grids turned off.
i'm going to take a guess that its probably input one side of chamber and pump on other and the plasma is fuel that was passing through center grid at the time the switch went on.

well i guess i might need to rethink somethings with what i just thought up, guess my memory not as good as i thought, guess it pays to refresh ones memory on visual experience sometimes.
still i think i was going in a good direction with earlier posts. but might need a slight rethink.
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Richard Hull
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Re: a couple of thoughts and theorys to make you think.

Post by Richard Hull »

Thanks for the major update that we should replace electric field in all places where you talked of magnetic field. A major rework, for sure. Easy to misundertand when totally wrong words with vastly different meanings, effects and origins are used throughout.

You have not read much here beyond theory. Operationally, the deuterium fuel is continuously pushed into a running fusor while also being evacuated from it. Flowing deuterium is used in all the truly successful fusors. You would need to understand physical vacuum systems in order to understand how this works. A slow leak of fuel into the chamber is carefully balanced against a throttled back vacuum pump to an average run pressure of about 10 microns, on average.

You will never see any plasma motion or signs of motion of any sort in a working fusor. Many of the videos on line are of demo fusors (doing zero fusion) and often at their first, crude operation. An internal video of a real, working, fusing fusor would be a dull thing to watch. Far more interesting and instructive would be the external human effort needed during a run.

When first operating, a new fusor or, more often, a demo fusor, a lot of fireworks are produced as imperfections, tiny microscopic particles and nicks are burned off the mint, virgin grid. A functioning, fusing fusor will just appear as a calm small plasma ball with star like rays within a central grid region. No movement or motion detectable.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Andrew Haynes
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Re: a couple of thoughts and theorys to make you think.

Post by Andrew Haynes »

@steventw
You could probable have ac voltage that is dc biased to be all negative voltage, the fluctuated electric field would induce magnetic fields in the plasma, depending on geometries some interesting effect might happen.
Andrew Haynes
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