Creating plasma with microwaves?

This forum is for other possible methods for fusion such as Sonolumenescense, Cold Fusion, CANR/LENR or accelerator fusion. It should contain all theory, discussions and even construction and URLs related to "other than fusor, fusion".
Post Reply
Sven Andersson
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:46 pm
Real name: Sven Andersson

Creating plasma with microwaves?

Post by Sven Andersson »

With a magnetron from a microwave oven. What would a simple setup look like for deuterium gas at 1-10 Pa?
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14991
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Creating plasma with microwaves?

Post by Richard Hull »

We recommend against using magnetrons from ovens unless you are expert in microwave technology. Unlike radio waves from a transmitter the magnetron throws all its energy in a directed beam. Reflections, VSWR mismatch issues and failure to observe strict precautions can have an eye or an organ cooked by a misdirected or reflected beam or blow up the maggie, itself.

If you are not very careful you can create a life changing event.

Two of our most stringent and strong admonitions.

1. Do not play or experiment with x-ray tubes or powerful oven magnetrons
2. Do not open or work with naked, controlled radioactive materials.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
John Futter
Posts: 1848
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:29 pm
Real name: John Futter
Contact:

Re: Creating plasma with microwaves?

Post by John Futter »

Sven
look at Richards reply
but you can put a tube of your favourite gas in an ordinary microwave oven and see the result

for a start take an ordinary incandescant bulb that has a blown filament and put it in an ordinary microwave oven and observe the argon plasma

Ordinary bulbs are back filled with argon to stop the tungsten filament evaporating.
After doing this consider your quest done!!
Sven Andersson
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:46 pm
Real name: Sven Andersson

Re: Creating plasma with microwaves?

Post by Sven Andersson »

John Futter wrote:Sven
look at Richards reply
but you can put a tube of your favourite gas in an ordinary microwave oven and see the result
How about this for a setup: take a vial or ampoule with two internal plate electrodes melted into the glass. Fill with D2 at the pressure I choose. Microwave in an intact MW-oven until there is a plasma. Turn off microwave oven. And immediately (can be programmed with relays perhaps) turn on the high voltage between the electrode plates and observe what happens.

But how do you safely lead two wires into the MW-oven? Drill two 2 mm holes in the internal metal cage? Now, can the wires act as antennas for microwaves and transmit them out of the MW-oven? Let's say you have two relays immediately outside the metal cage, and that those two relays are closed during the microwave phase, so to speak?
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14991
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Creating plasma with microwaves?

Post by Richard Hull »

This has become a rather ridiculous thread. Folks in the know understand why this will not effectively do anything of value, much less, do any fusion at all. What's more, the idea would fail on the face of it. I fear that my usual Ben Franklin quote, "Let the experiment be done!", might result in Sven's untimely death or permanent injury so I will not recommend that path. That quote is usually reserved for those showing up here with grandiose ideas involving extreme time and expense to prove or disprove. They have ideas, but no verve or will to do.

Dangerous experiments are not to be recommended, commented on or condoned. Doing well-guided, well-trodden paths to successful amateur fusion are dangerous enough without rather hair-brained ideas involving 1 kilowatt microwave oven experiments where the very best result might be the destruction of the family's microwave oven.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Sven Andersson
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:46 pm
Real name: Sven Andersson

Re: Creating plasma with microwaves?

Post by Sven Andersson »

Richard Hull wrote:We recommend against using magnetrons from ovens
Some of the stuff people have done and put on YouTube is mind boggling as regards safety! Search for "What microwave oven is capable. Generated plasma." or "Magnetron #6 - Irradiating A Vacuum Jar" or "Dangerous Magnetron from Microwave Oven 1".
Grigory_Heaton
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:28 pm
Real name: Grigory Heaton
Location: San Luis Obispo CA

Re: Creating plasma with microwaves?

Post by Grigory_Heaton »

John Futter wrote:Sven
for a start take an ordinary incandescant bulb that has a blown filament and put it in an ordinary microwave oven and observe the argon plasma
Apologies for reviving a dead thread, but after reading this I was quite interested in what the temperatures inside the plasma will be. Do you have any ideas?
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14991
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Creating plasma with microwaves?

Post by Richard Hull »

Did you ever consider reading the FAQs!!

viewtopic.php?f=42&t=10424

Temperatures as you know them........Plasmas are ice cold for the most part.

As physicists evaluated them.... millions and billions of kelvins

READ...READ...READ

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Grigory_Heaton
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:28 pm
Real name: Grigory Heaton
Location: San Luis Obispo CA

Re: Creating plasma with microwaves?

Post by Grigory_Heaton »

With all due respect, what I meant to say was that I was interested in whether or not anyone had actually taken a direct, relatively precise measurement of the plasma particle energies in a (specifically) microwaved lightbulb (even though I'm not sure how someone would go about doing this).
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14991
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Creating plasma with microwaves?

Post by Richard Hull »

Assuming an absolutely clear light bulb and assuming you knew what gases were contained, a custom designed slit in an ocean optics or similar PC compatible spectrometer might be able to show doppler broadening of certain spectral lines to determine the range of energies in the gas. The microwave door would have to be open to give a clean light path to the spectrometer. It might involve a small telescope that would allow some distance from the microwave radiation. I can't imagine much real span on the broadening. (low average energies/plasma temp)

Certainly not worth the effort unless you already had the spectrometer.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
User avatar
Rich Feldman
Posts: 1470
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:59 pm
Real name: Rich Feldman
Location: Santa Clara County, CA, USA

Re: Creating plasma with microwaves?

Post by Rich Feldman »

About that Doppler broadening of spectral lines, I ran some numbers Friday night but decided to hold off on posting them.
These are unreviewed!

Take, for example, the blue line of singly-ionized argon at 488 nm. Called 4880 Å when us oldsters were growing up.
At 300 K (room temperature), the thermal motion averages 0.026 eV per atom. RMS velocity is 508 m/s (293 m/s per axis, comparable to the speed of sound), and the FWHM linewidth from Doppler is 0.0007 nm.
At 10,000 K (0.86 eV per atom) it's 0.0039 nm.
At 100,000 K the kT energy reaches 8.6 whole eV, RMS velocity is about 9 km/s, and spectral linewidth due to Doppler is 0.012 nm.
Don't forget, we are talking about lightbulbs in MWO's, not fusors.

Ocean Optics USB4000 UV-VIS spectrometer normal optical resolution seems to be 1.5 to 2.3 nm FWHM. I saw somewhere that with a "plus" model, a resolution of 0.02 nm was attainable, but I think that needs more than just a narrow slit.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
Post Reply

Return to “Other Forms of Fusion - Theory, Construction, Discussion, URLs”