Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

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David Geer
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Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by David Geer »

I'll give findings once I finish with a magnetic/electromagnetic icosahedral or variant magrid lattice (Based off the Polywell WB series) with hexa-stream laser particle injection (Arctic Series Blue Wicked Lasers). Looking at maybe layering a second WB lattice around a smaller at an offset angle to further compress the field and pinch the cusp points tighter. 45 degree x 45 degree positional shift (encompassing fields in the corner gap points of the first field lattice, 12 toroidals in total).

Still debating on making 2-4 grids and if any, will be propelled gyroscopics to promote field containment and whether there will be feedback capacitors/relays connected to the inner grid (for discharge recollection) and a flexible solar panel system layering the vacuum shell (best efficiency is around 47% with top materials). The feedback capacitors/relays will in essence pickup the converted photovoltaic energy and occasional plasma discharge due to core field discrepencies. Feedback going to a multimeter for initial tests and if sufficient, back inwards to the (debatable) electromagnet system to bolster containment strength.

Also, looking to obtain high reflectivity EMI shielding polyurethane foam. Looking at a mixed alloy of Aluminum, Nickel, Copper and Gold in the polyurethane foam. (I'll update with links to material databases). This will help put some (and hopefully enough) of the EM Radiation back into the core that doesn't get absorbed by the solar cells and discharge collectors.

Everything will be connected to a charge reclamation system. Almost total sealing and shielded layers except for laser injection and fiber optic viewport (smaller hole for safety measures). Still researching what recording system receives the least interference from the radiation. No schematics as of yet, due to, placement of driven gyroscope assembly but shouldn't take me too long to work out the kinks.

In theory, the design is unique and hopeful but it'll be an interesting engineering challenge to actually build it once I have all the parts. Will definitely appreciate all the feedback and suggestions. I'm big on hybrid systems so won't remove any singular system unless it fails to perform.
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by Chris Bradley »

I think you should keep it simple and stick with just the 2 grids and the propelled gyroscopics with discharge recollectors.
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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by David Geer »

Yeah, currently going over the engineering aspect of propelled gyroscopics compared to the modified polywell design. The polywell multigrid will be the positively charged outer grid to maintain higher particle containment. The propelled gyroscopics was to somewhat simulate a postulated stationary tokamak (spinning fields around a core rather than a torus). If I could get it to work there would be 3 grids (outer + or electromagnetic, mid n, inner -) with inner/outer being opposing spin directions.

The polyurethane foam will have to be custom made as the current material doesn't contain any gold, which is what I really want in there for the EM properties and it's responsiveness is nuclear particle reactions.

One thing I forgot was that I was gifted an older geiger counter from a family friend so that cuts my costs by a good amount.

The biggest thing I noticed from everyone's designs is the lack of emission reclamation systems. Can't reach break even unless you can return what comes out to the process. This makes all the equations exponential dwindle to zero.
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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by David Geer »

Another big challenge for the gyroscopics is to get the universal tri-axis system to have individual motorized rings so that the inner ring spins the fastest and with electromagnetic or permanent magnet materials, create a denser field-form with the aid of the outer ring rotations.

Anyone have any suggestions on the motorizing aspect if each ring is at a 45 degree offset?
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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by Dan Tibbets »

I'm not sure what you are proposing. But, if you have one set on magnets outside of another I don't think you can offest them or spin one or both sets. Part of the needed magnetic morphology of the Polywell is that all magnetic surfaces facing the core have to be convex towards the center, otherwise the containment will not be stable. I suspect having magnets outside the primary magrid, if offset or spining could deform the 'Wiffleball magnetic surfaces locally into concave shapes towards the center- bad. There have been discussions of placing symetrical magrids, one inside another to possibly have a net increased B- field and possibly pinch the cusps and/or improve recirculation, but to my knowledge, it hasn't gotten past the hand waving stage.

As for spinning a magnet, why? Angular momentum may help the Focus Fusion approach, but I have not seen any claim that it could help a Polywell. It might be bad. Any angular momentum will decrease the central convergence of ions in this spherical (quasi- spherical) system. Also, if you are thinking of spinning the plasma, so that it approaches a condition of a torus- you are trying to build a Tokamak type machine, which is completely different from a Polywell. I'm not saying whatever you are conceiving is worthless, but it seems a large departure from the basic Polywell scheme.

And, what do you hope to achieve with metalic/ polyurathane foam? It may stop X-rays and UV rays, but so will the vacuum vessel wall. Unless you anticipate this foam being some type of photovoltaic system that would convert this radiant energy better than a thermal cycle, you gain nothing. And may actually be losing ground. Also, keep in mind that capturing x-ray energy (in a nonthermal manner) is much more difficult than doing so with visible light. You might look at how the Focus Fusion lab proposes to do this. I believe Eric Learner(?) has a patent for this. I also suspect a polyurathane based foam would have severe outgassing problems, not to mention melting and vaporizing under modest thermal loads. The Focus Fusion proposal has their X-ray collector outside the vacuum vessel, and hope it will convert perhaps ~ 80% of the x-ray energy reaching it (vs. ~ 30% for a thermal cycle).

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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by David Geer »

Thanks for the critiques Dan. The EMI polyurethane foam is actually an EM reflective material. It functions as shielding by sending the radiation in a deflective or inverse course. Not looking at using the foam for absorption but reinsertion of the energy back into the core. Trying not to waste the energy emissions. Also, it's a metallic foam and will only be .5mm thick. There will still remain the stainless steel chamber housing everything. Lastly, the alloy does not have any technical data as of yet so this will also be an experiment into the performance of said material.

So far, the Polywell and gyroscopics are looking to be two different experiments and will end up NOT being in the same device unless as interchangeable parts. As for the multi-Polywell, you have 6 torii making up a cube but containing "leaks" or cusps in the corners and ring centers. The additional 6 torii will be slightly larger and centered over each of these corners so the outer domain of the first field-set will be compressed inwards, further sealing up the core area from a star shape to more of an actual sphere.

The gyroscopics might just need to be more "egg-beater" in appearance (2-3 rings per spinnable layer) with an advancing worm gear drive system through a central shaft. Egg-beater in egg-beater in egg-beater. Basically, increasing compressive electromagnetic confinement space without increasing total number of components. Due to a spherical field being rotated the core will not become a torus with respects to the evenly applied field in any direction.
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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by Dan Tibbets »

Concerning reflecting x-ray frequency light back into the core. It is very difficult to deflect x-rays. Read about the Chandra X-ray telescope for an indication of deflecting the x-rays enough to come to a focus. Reflecting them back towards their origin woulf take many more grazing reflections. For x-rays to be deflected instead of absorbed or transmitted, you have to have very shallow angles- sort of like mirages. I could see a foam acting like alot of shallow angle surfaces that the x-rays could reflect off of, but there would also be alot of perpendicular surfaces. Taking visible light as an example, a very good reflective surface might reflect 98-99 % of the right angle light hitting it, and absorb the rest (heat). For X-rays, only the very shallow angles would reflect, thus almost all of the x-rays would be absorbed or transmitted. A aluminum coated spounge would make a lousy telescope mirror. In fact using very tiny spounge/ irregular surfaces tends to absorb more light than flat black surfaces.

And why would you want to reflect them back? If central focus of ions occurs and the ions remain nearly the same energy, and the slow electrons in the center have nearly the same energy, and if most of the Bremsstrulung radiation is originating from this core, then the X-ray energy may be in a narrow frequency, but I don't know how this reheating in the core (where the greatest density is) affects the potential well. If it helps of if it hurts is iffy. There are alot of If's there.
Like a fusor the Polywell is driven by electrostatic forces. For the most part the magnetic field directly effects only the electrons, confining them for reasonable times. But an important factor is that it preferentially allows upscattered electrons to escape. This is important for delaying the electron thermalization that otherwise has detrimental effects (like more bremsstrulung, especially with P-B11 fusion). Improving electron confinement too much can hurt the system. Recirculation is a very important part of this balancing act as I beleive it both decreases the electron input energy costs, and helps to counteract thermalization as it resets the recycled electrons to initial conditions (an aspect of Gauss Law).

The basic Polywell looks simple, but there are extreamly complex and dynamic processes that are all but impossible to model. That is why expermentation is so important. If it indeed works, expanding the system might be helpfull, but untill this much easier (both to do and to evaluate) basic research is done (and hopefully made public) , it is difficult to predict optimizations.

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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by David Geer »

With the reflection of the x-rays, the shielding will be in a sphere so there are plenty of surfaces for reflection. If you take the sun as an example, the EM flares create recirculating arcs that go back into the mass. This allows for a sustainable energy kickback because the magnetic field is so great that even the EM field and some cosmic ray energy particles are pulled back into the core. The big reason why the Fusors haven't worked at breakeven is because too much of this energy is lost and the chain of reactions breaks down to nil due to particle loss. Just trying to think of ways, whether they work or not, to keep as much of the energy in the core plasma fusion process for as long as possible.

Still have to look at the effects of high concentration x-rays on solar cells. Gotta see how the monocrystalline arrays continue to work like normal or end up with an increased burnout.

As for the Polywell effect, have we even gotten definitive information on whether or not Ligon's device was even in a vacuum? It uses 6 Ion Injection Beams to get it going. Forcing them through the magnetic fields like a slow particle accelerator and using the fields to continue the process. My design will have the Deuterium gas vented in so that it is already within the field and the neutral/negative grids can naturally accelerate into a centralized plasmoid. Also, stronger magnetic fields reduces the Brem effect. The processes involved in a Polywell field are simple and easily mapped out. The downside to the basic Polywell is that it is extremely sloppy and inefficient. Too much focus on chance collisions and using input energy over long periods of time to get the processes going.

Lastly, I want the increased heat/energy potential in the core to increase without the need for higher input energies. The closer to a true microstar the better. Albeit, a true sustainable reaction contains both fusion and fission is the same chain of reactions.

Sadly, the toroidal electromagnets are looking like they will have to be handmade and haven't decided on whether to be an earth permanent magnet or a neodymium type with magnet wire wrappings. I would like to use a strong bitter magnet but I don't think they will last very long under HV electralyzing.
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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by David Geer »

Well, I'm coming back to my design and looking at some concepts that might work well together. So feedback on the following would be greatly appreciated.

Looking at combining the standard spherical fusor chamber with a variation on either the SERL "generator" electromagnet setup (will build and test a mockup for the supposed vacuum cooling effect; most likely a hoax dud) or an internal polywell for the outer magrid. Also, adding in thermoelectric and solar generating elements for the inner shell wall. Lead glass or acrylate domes around the outside of the shell with cylindrical casing caps for any attachments and definitely for any/all viewports. The chamber would be made from the stainless steel alloyed with titanium dioxide.

Gotta cut this short because work is almost over but I'll still be coming out with a more detailed list of components I plan to include in my design.

Can't wait to hear what you all think!

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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by Richard Hull »

The Searl generator is about as much of a hoax as you could possibly get involved with. The rest of your ideas are a bit too nebulous for me to interpret.

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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by Carl Willis »

I recommend starting with a simple, adaptable, and low-risk design, and save the challenging, speculative, and fanciful elements for later addition. Reality has a well-noted sobering effect.

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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by Chris Bradley »

David Geer wrote:
> Can't wait to hear what you all think!

Depends what your objective is. If your objective is to spend time (and money? would you ever put this hardware together?) throwing ideas around with no objective and without the desire for a conclusion, it sounds perfect!
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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by David Geer »

I'm simply looking for honest, blunt critiques.

The SERL stuff is just something I want to experiment with in a gyroscopic system to see what effects it does on fields. I know the damn thing doesn't work like he "advertizes". Just a crazy old coot going senile but the centripital/centrifugal magnetic rotations interest me for a gyromagnetic field assembly. Single set of rollers and a ring layered in offset axis arrangement that you'd normally see in a 3 ring gyroscope. A different approach to the Polywell setup but still attempting to create the same kind of bottle field.

Found in some materials research that there's a good number of thermoelectric generating materials that can be layered on top of photovoltaics. A few universities are trying to combine the two systems into a single layer material (hoping they succeed).

Use of the reclamation systems to provide some feedback power to the magnetics and input power systems. Also, looking at how functional some supercaps would be for a fusor system.

The titanium dioxide alloyed stainless steel (PNC316) is strong against oxygen absorption and outgassing. This is caused by a molecular configuration that is more complete and stable and as such, less prone to give/take effects on the electron shells. So, from outermost layer inwards the "perimeter" would be lead glass/acrylate shielding, the PNC316 steel shell, EMI foam polymer layer, photovoltaic and thermoelectric generators on into the open space of the inner "core" area. I don't expect the reclamation portion to survive in the environment for very long because of pressures and temperature ranges. The shielding potential should be great enough that you can stay within a few feet without fear of exposure but will take a little more engineering for detector placement for accurate readings.

I know this is starting out expensive but obtaining parts will be slow and take time, which will give me plenty of time to fully learn and understand some of the other trades involved that I'm not that strong in. Just not a simply to do it person. I want to try my own ideas before falling back on tried and tested. No loss to any of you but if individual portions work well, then it would benefit the whole. Otherwise, you'll learn from another's experiment that some things just don't work. Still benefits someone either way.

Lastly, to Richard: I want to look at this as a total system approach rather than the piecemeal of "this piece does this, this piece does that". Yes, they have to serve a specific function but they must also complement one another, as in frequency harmonics.
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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by Chris Bradley »

David Geer wrote:
> I'm simply looking for honest, blunt critiques.

But you still haven't said what your objective is? Sure you could cobble all these things together. So what!? Are we supposed to *guess* that you are after more neutrons, more efficiency, higher operating pressure, lower voltage operation.. whatever, and if so what is the mechanism you are trying to achieve this objective by; is it high accuracy collisions, avoidance of loss of ions, recovery of scattered ions (either as converted energy or back up to speed), entropy removal (maintain non-Maxwellian velocities), reduced electron conductance, reduced secondary electron emissions, finer beam focus, less beam focus, higher beam density, what?? WHAT!?
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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by David Geer »

If you looked into the function of each, the answer as a whole for all factors mentioned is: Yes. You can't improve singular areas without creating a draw on another. This, in of itself, is the basic principles of entropy.

Improving the accuracy of collisions means more collisions in both inner and outer boundaries. So in turn, you have to improve the reclamation portion of the system to return more of the energy back to the core. Placing these materials means you create greater loss of ions which, again in turn, requires improvement in grid configuration and materials for attraction and containment.

All variables factor into one another, so you need to improve all fairly evenly if you want any type of permanent increase in gain. It's not a "one or the other" scenario but a balancing act.

And... the confused screaming format at the end and condescending tone isn't really constructive. Level heads and open minds is what this group should be about.

The initial fusor phases will examine the individual effects such as shell composition factoring into ion loss/surface saturation and outgassing. As more materials come together, tests will involve confinement/grid configurations, pressure control systems and by the completed version I am talking about, all aspects will have been tested and analyzed. Just because I detail the final product does not mean the fusor won't start out the same as others (except shell material; not cheap but only need one).
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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by Chris Bradley »

You still don't appear to have an objective, so I'll not press on that angle. The 'Scientific Method' shall remain a mystery, here.

[And the 'WHAT' is just a spurious FLA, as you seem to like them.]
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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by David Geer »

Well, I'm still scouring forum posts so I still have a lot to go through before seeing everyone's tests results on the various components. I've gone through almost all of the HV threads so far. Mainly because I'm debating on keeping my spare microwave (standalone countertop unit) or cannibalizing it for parts, incase I decide to move and may need it later on.

Other components like metals, I'm not overly concerned with seeing as I can go through Graybar down the road using Lockheed Martin or my uncle's pipe organ company's business information. More exotic or specialized items I'll need to scrounge or contact specialty manufacturers to acquire.

IF... you want a clear cut objective then here it is: Total system analysis and modification to extrapolate variances in loss/gain power output.

Tests will include: (electro)magnetic gimbal assemblies up to 6 axes, polywell confinement, standard iec confinement grids with varying architectures/materials, shielding materials for exposure ranges and image/video capture improvements, laser impregnation, beam on target, energy reclamation, vacuum-to-gas density ratios, correlating volt/amp/current analysis in relation to atmospheric composition and density ratios, anode-to-anode spark gap effects in D-D plasma of variable density, piezoelectric entropic mass crystalline target, experimental materials for seals/flanges, etc. The list goes on but if you didn't catch it, I plan to do full spectrum experimentation.

I grew up with ADHD so my scientific method has taken on similar traits over the years.

Last sidenote on this topic: As I probably won't be detailing more about this for another couple months to a year. I was notified by my cousin just now, I'll be receiving a copy of solidworks from him sometime this week. Kind of bummed it's not Solid Edge functional prototyping software but still pretty good stuff.

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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by Jeroen Vriesman »

David, you write:

"So far, the Polywell and gyroscopics are looking to be two different experiments and will end up NOT being in the same device unless as interchangeable parts. As for the multi-Polywell, you have 6 torii making up a cube but containing "leaks" or cusps in the corners and ring centers. The additional 6 torii will be slightly larger and centered over each of these corners so the outer domain of the first field-set will be compressed inwards, further sealing up the core area from a star shape to more of an actual sphere."

It cannot work that way, remember that in a polywell the magnetic fields cancel each other, the magnetic field vectors are all pointing outwards or they are all pointing inwards.
Only the remaining magnetic field close to the coils is responsible for preventing the electrons from hitting the grid (as much as possible).
So your 6 "outer coils" won't have any effect on the magnetic field of the 6 inner coils, they will only be an extra source of losses.
The idea of "sealing up the core" is not what the magnetic fields in a polywell do, the star shape is not "because of leaks". Confinement of the electrons in a sphere is not possible, they have to leave and re-enter the polywell.

For the rest there seems to be the idea of getting "energy back into the core", but it's not thermal fusion.
Thermalization is a problem, not something you want in a polywell, there is no need to "heat a plasma" is a polywell, the electric field should accelerate the D+ ions to a speed which makes fusion possible, energy in the form of heat will only thermalize the ions.
Even without "getting energy back into the core" the thermalization is a problem, and hopefully POPS is the answer to that problem.
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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by Dan Tibbets »

Some considerations:

Bremsstrulung radiation may be suppressible according to Eric Lenear (sp?) . But this effect only occurs (if at all) in very high magnetic fields in the region of a few million Tesla. The Polywell will be lucky to reach 10 Tesla.
As far as recovering x-rays, reflecting them back into the center would be extremely difficult, especially at high efficiencies. If you are talking about recovering the energy carried by the x-rays. That is simple. A simple thermal cycle can do this at up to ~ 30% efficiency. Efficiencies of up to ~ 80-90 % may be possible. Eric Lenear has a patent (or at least a patent application) for a possible method.

As mentioned, the Polywell, is not an ignition machine. It is not self heating. It actually hates self heating. The principles are simple, it is the convolutions and dynamic interactions that may allow for the claimed profitable results.
The goal is not to heat a plasma to the highest temperature obtainable. The goal is to heat (accelerate) the ions to a specific temperature through electrostatic means. This is easy. The difficulty is to do this at low energy costs. This does require recirculation- specifically of electrons as they dominate the energy losses. The recirculation is straight forward through electrostatic means (electrodynamic may be a better term), although It took Bussard , etel over a decade to figure this out. It is easy to manipulate electrons through electrostatic means. X- rays is another problem entirely. They do not respond to electrical fields, they reflect from any real surface only at very shallow angles- even then some of the x- rays are absorbed - heat. It might take a thousand shallow angle deflections/ reflections to turn an x-ray stream 180 degrees. If you lose only 0.1% of the x-rays per reflection, the net result would be only a tiny portion of the x-rays being fully reflected. This might be useful for diagnostic purposes, but would be an infinitesimal improvement over straight thermal conversion. In a large torus like a Tokamak the x-rays emitted in a direction nearly parallel to the torus axis, might glance off of a reflective wall a few times , this might help retain the heat in a Tokamak (which is an ignition machine) and this might help a very modest amount (maybe even 1-2 percent(probably very optimistic)) but any gain is desperately needed. The story is completely different in an electrodynamic non ignition, non thermal near spherical geometry Polywell. The direct conversion of X-rays proposed by Eric Leaner for the DPF machine is a bulky photovotaic system that fits around the small DPF reactor, it might fit around a Polywell - if needed, but for a Tokamak sized machine it is increasingly bulky and costly and inneficient.

Engineering type studies of various materials and geometries may help the survival chariteristics, and heat loading of structures. Handling X-rays, possible gamma rays, neutrons and high speed charged and neutral particles are all important considerations. All are needed to developing a working commercial reactor. For short term experimentation that is directed towards basic feasibility investigation. Such concerns are placed on the back burner.

But, if you are operating on the assumption that the system will work, early investigation of these engineering issues may provide a head start on patentable technology.

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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by Dan Tibbets »

As I confidently minimize capacity to reflect x-rays at more than shallow angles, along comes
claims such as these:

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-08-bra ... limit.html

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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by Doug Coulter »

Yes, that's very interesting. Now all you need are large, single crystal perfect diamonds, and something useful to do with reflected X rays, since of course the fusor medium won't even notice them much.
If there was something similar for neutrons -- that would be a real exciting situation.
Why guess when you can know? Measure!
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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by David Geer »

Dan DT wrote:

> If you are talking about recovering the energy carried by the x-rays. That is simple. A simple thermal cycle can do this at up to ~ 30% efficiency. Efficiencies of up to ~ 80-90 % may be possible. Eric Lenear has a patent (or at least a patent application) for a possible method.

The latest materials to be released this year from scientific and university experiments has led to a 45% efficiency of thermal energy conversion. And we are not talking collecting thermal energy from the plasma but from the heating of the chamber from electrical discharge. You've all made comments about the chamber being "hot" to the touch and this could well be utilized to feed some energy loss back into the system.

As for the polywell's 6 torii, they don't cancel eachother out. The effect creates fields that "press" against one another with weak points in the torii centers and cubical corners where the fields either don't reach or aren't strong enough to contain. An additional 6 torii of slightly larger diameter would mean more field compression into a spherical shape, which in fact, you would want in an IEC fusor but not a polywell. The goal is to keep the energetic particles in a tight area to increase collisions.

Doug Coulter wrote:
> Yes, that's very interesting. Now all you need are large, single crystal perfect diamonds, and something useful to do with reflected X rays, since of course the fusor medium won't even notice them much.
> If there was something similar for neutrons -- that would be a real exciting situation.

Quartz crystals can be used for it's piezoelectric effects from x-rays and other vibratory/thermal exchanges to oscillate an electric current but the rapid radiation decay would mean changing out the crystals every 2-3 weeks and that wouldn't be cost effective so I don't consider that as of right now.

Lastly, a big reason for the x-ray shielding materials would be to create a safer work environment for the operators and not simply to attempt to reflect back into the core. New generations of optical camoflauge can be setup for specific particle wavelengths which could, in turn, reflect x-ray energy back but has not been tested yet.

Minimizing bleed-off energy and actually attempting energy reclamation is what the fusor is lacking in all experiments run. Very glad to see members looking up new materials and research for possible applications. Too much secular work is being done.
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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

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>Too much secular work is being done.

Huh? What does that mean?
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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by Chris Bradley »

>>Too much secular work is being done.
> Huh? What does that mean?

I guess it must mean we're not being 'religious' enough about the subject, and that we should do less of all this silly objective experimentation and trust blindly in the words of others.
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Re: Hybridized Polywell Design Theory of mine

Post by David Geer »

Secular means secluded or separate, this is not limited to religion. The scientific community has run this way for a great many decades and is doing a movement towards cloud networking. The sharing of information between all scientists to see if even failed experiments towards a specific goal might be a successful one in another field.
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