Archived - New camera test

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Doug Coulter
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Archived - New camera test

Post by Doug Coulter »

And other interesting things, but here's a teaser or two:
Test of new camera - start of run, everything cool
Test of new camera - start of run, everything cool
After running awhile, things got hot - this is why I needed to experiment with near-IR blocking filters - I want accurate color temperatures for things I might melt. The grid is in no danger here - it's graphite for the ends, tungsten for the rods. The feedthrough, however, is a copper rod stuffed into a BN rod, which is in turn stuffed into pyrex. I don't want to melt that copper!
Now it's hot - but it's the right kind of hot.
Now it's hot - but it's the right kind of hot.
Without additional near-IR stop filtering, this orange hot stuff looked purple, which wasn't useful to me. We've had some interesting "anomalies" and "breakthroughs" here of late, and I've stopped running in that "mode" since May, till I can get this to a point of complete remote operation. I'll not make outrageous claims, but we ran hot enough for a bit for me to get ill for a few weeks from 20 some seconds of exposure - behind lead. Lots of it. I don't plan to even try to replicate that again till I can do it from 70 feet away (and more shielding too). But in the meanwhile, this is pretty decent eye-candy, and a nice test of the camera.

I found that webcams kind of stink on various levels. IR is a problem with most (as it is even with the IR stop camera used here until I added more filter), resolution stinks, their color balance is ?automatic? and not true to life, the latency on a PC is high (a second or nearly even on gigE network if the second PC is what's showing the image from VLC streaming a webcam) and so on - just not good enough for me.

Amazingly, the king of slow - a raspberry pi, does this a heck of a lot better. You get manual control of the camera - all the parameters, no auto messing up your observation. Yes, the sparkles are X rays - ones I no longer have to absorb to use my eyeballs - think of it as a backup to the geiger counter, which failed me during a time it really mattered by counting once - and staying "on" so no clicks or counts from the counter, the radiation was so high. This will at least warn of that!
A fuller report on this run is here.
For this run, I'm camera testing and limiting things to the "normal mode" most people run fusors in, and barely hitting 4m/second tops. That's on purpose. I've discoved another dynamic mode that does better (I think) and am not doing that or revealing details yet - it has to be replicated here before you can for one, and I'm not ready to do that again without a significant amount of distance between me and it, one bout of rad sickness will convince even the biggest daredevil to not try that again.

Some more about the camera setup here, including how to do it yourself with a pi and a camera from adafruit.
Why guess when you can know? Measure!
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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: New camera test

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

I am surprised no one has jumped on this post with comments and questions yet. There is a lot going on here.

First, thanks for the update on camera stuff. Mike and I have been pretty disatisfied with our LAN camera. Thanks for blazing trails.

Second, I am way curious about your apparent spikes. It is difficult to believe that there was emissions that caused illness, but in this game there are some unknowns to be sure. I would expect that a burst like you describe would have activated more than silver. We're you able to survey other material in the lab for signs of activity immediately following the events?


Good luck. Keep us informed.
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Bob Reite
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Re: New camera test

Post by Bob Reite »

I'd like to know if it was neutron or X-ray emissions that made you ill.
The more reactive the materials, the more spectacular the failures.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
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Re: New camera test

Post by JakeJHecla »

If you had a high enough neutron fluence to make you ill, any Al or W items in the vicinity would be noticeably active for weeks. If it's been longer than that, I have access to heavily shielded HPGEs that can sniff out tiny amounts of residual activity. If you're inclined, I can provide third-party verification if you send samples.
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Richard Hull
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Re: New camera test

Post by Richard Hull »

All illness that might occur, if it ever occurs, from a fusor would, indeed, be purely due to x-radiation as anyone who knows radiation at the input levels we might even hope to encounter would know. Xrays are serious business over 35 kv. Neutrons are not, even at 100kv. After all, it's D-D fusion.....

At any level where neutrons might cause sickness, the x-radiation would kill!

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Doug Coulter
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Re: New camera test

Post by Doug Coulter »

I can't be sure what did it to me, but if you look at my youtube channel "mayday run" it was just after that. Yes, half my shop got activated, and weeks later BillF came over and saw the hotness in my cobalt alloy drills on a pretty sensitive geiger counter (we call it henny penny as it's always telling us the sky is falling). My own gear shut down - pulse pileup to the point of just DC outputs from everything...My PC crashed, but the micros kept going.

I have a lot of lead, probably not X rays from the fusor itself - it's well enough shielded, barely a leak anywhere on it, and I'm behind quite a lot of it. (X rays do act light light in a fog in air, a simple wall isn't enough if there's a leak, FWIW). This is in fact what motivated that project to some extent, but it was really good already for normal running in the 1-20 million n/s range "stable".

But if you have enough neutrons, you have capture gammas everywhere...and those are LOUD stuff that lead simply doesn't stop at all. In fact, the 2.2 MeV or so one from capture in hydrogen happens right at the 5 or so order of magnitude minimum for lead absorption, about where compton leaves off and pair production begins. I know I was sick as heck, and it wasn't flu- more like all my blood turned to water and all I could do was broth for awhile. I hate to say my estimated numbers, they are so high it's crazy. I did kind of replicate it for a couple seconds to make sure, and yes, this mode is possible, and involves RF, and gain between the ion grid and the main grid, like a plasma triode tuned just right - I was trying that, but it's a total accident I got anywhere near the right frequency, and bodes well for later testing - from a distance. Call it milliwatts of fusion, in the 10's for a very gross estimate after the fact from the forensics. I was going down that path becasue I'd earlier noticed that we got most fusion and Q at onsets, not in "stable mode" and was pursuing oscillation since my "plasma triode" has a power gain of about 100 - I figured why not just try a transformer (windings in series with each grid feed) and make a hartley type oscillator and see what happens? Now I know. Don't do that from close by.

This could be partly explained by the Mathieu equations with a few more variables for space charge (the stuff of mass spectrometers) etc, spin alignments or dunno. It happened is all I'm sure of at this point, and scared crap out of me, and I'm no stranger to danger.

I'll report more when I have more, for now, I just don't want to excite all the skeptics (or the other sort - fanboys) and be a target of that junk - we normally take extreme precautions around EMI and rad exposure.... I know what I saw, and what we measured weeks after - my drill bits are still hot enough to measure easily. So was a bag of antimony I had lying around for making bullet alloys. But it's a lot of work to prove real calibrated numbers from that stuff since we don't know what moderation there was for those things, they weren't in the "neutron oven" at the time, just out in the room like me.

Richard, you're only right in your assumption of X rays vs neutrons if the X rays are from and at the power supply volts (we were already stopping those to within 10x of the background count at the operator position). At capture gamma levels...it's another story, see Sieverts and that math. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying we can't be sure at this point. More data is required, that's why we get into the lab in the first place.

Jim, you're welcome, sharing is what it's all about with me. Be prepared for some fiddly stuff, and get a 2.5 or more diopter lens to take that 1M-infinity focus down to the range you have, turn off most of the "auto" stuff on the web page served by the pi and you're good to go. Most of the "issues" I had were due to raspi-update around adding the cute little 320x240 screen to this so I could run it standalone (not actually required, actually, it works fine without the screen, a keyboard, or anything else). It seems that Hexxeh doesn't test to see if his magic firmware (raspi bios) updates break other stuff, is all. Make a backup first....there's no easy way (or at all in some cases) to roll that thing back. But hey, 2.5+ mbytes/sec of full HDMI, yeah, now we're talking. I shrunk these so as not to waste bits here. I was going for more focus accuracy and wanting to see it. Too bad the grid was oriented so that one of the rods sort of hides that, I'll be fixing that next time I break vacuum. I do that rarely as I've found that there's a big difference when you get to "really pure" in there. My system stays pumped down 24/7/365 to below e-8 mbar except when I'm going to change something, and I'm using 6 9's pure D here. A half percent of water makes it real nice and stable, but the real stuff happens at ppm levels. Thats HARD to do, but like with silicon, it seems necessary. (for those not an old fart, silicon was theorized for quite awhile to be a good semiconductor, but for years we had germanium as they just couldn't get silicon pure enough to be useful). Same thing seems to apply here, as a first guess. There are other issues better covered on my forums of course, but that is one of them. Focus is another, and what happens right at an onset of fusion appears to be another real biggie.
I'm finally getting my data aq so I don't have to ignore things that even Farnsworth himself reported, but couldn't replicate. That's one reason I am trying not to make an extreme claim here - I want to replicate this myself, and of course, have others do so as well - that's what makes science what it is. For now, let's just say I found something interesting. When I have it so it can't be refuted, I'll let you know. I know how sick I was....that's a data point I'd rather not take again.
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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: New camera test

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

Doug,
Funny that you would mention the capture gammas because this evening I was drafting a response post that I didn't finish that discussed them as part of what would give exposure in a postulated event like that. The overall premise of my post was that Richard is right in the conventional understanding of fusors in that X-rays are the true hazard, but if one assumes that somehow the conditions were enhanced to the point that for a given voltage, fusion rates improved by magnitudes then the xray danger is no longer what you are worried about because your shielding doesn't become less effective for them. You will see a pile of neutron dose but lots of very high energy capture gammas. You may even see gammas coming from protons hitting the metal of your chamber. All of this assumes fusion rates unheard of in fusors. I agree with Jake Hecla in that gamma scans of shop material that may have been activated would say a lot about what really happened. If you have drill bits that still shine them I am impressed.
Stay safe.
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Doug Coulter
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Re: New camera test

Post by Doug Coulter »

Heck, I just lost a long response post I'd been composing myself. I give up, it's beer o clock anyway. Yes, damage is damage and capture gammas are a big part. More later. I should be fully remoted by spring/summer and be able to attack this in the good mode again. I want to get it to where I can tell others how to replicate it in their setup, not just my rather strange one.

FWIW, when I spoke of gain above, it was in the normal EE sense - power gain from control (ion grid) to output (main grid) at DC or RF, with a rather long transit time due to particle fields mostly cancelling our applied field. That and the fact that I continued to notice bursts of loud, high Q fusion on the edge of stability at onsets made me try the oscillator thing, and it appears that the transit times set a frequency all on their own that was just right in my case - or close enough.

This could explain tons of anomalous results others have reported but been unable to replicate reliably, as any ham who has built a linear knows - parasitic oscillations are always there if you don't prevent them. This time I was doing it on purpose.

Hopefully, I'll have this remoted fully by spring/summer, so I can keep at it. Till then, I'm just working on that. No more super power runs for me for awhile.

I'm gonna get that extraordinary evidence to back up an extraordinary claim....I know it's required and why. Till then, y'all be careful and stay safe. I was completely blind-sided by all my sensitive detectors blocking and stopping counting due to the huge output. If it happens to you, don't fool around looking for the cause for too long, just turn it off!
Why guess when you can know? Measure!
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Doug Coulter
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Re: New camera test

Post by Doug Coulter »

Well, this logged me out within just a few minutes again so a nice response appears impossible here, at least from me.
Here's a gif of the equation that controls quadrupole mass spectrometers. Add in variables for space charge, and I think that's likely the controlling math. Since the intersections are where the action is, I'd have to say I just got lucky - look how bare that space is:
From Dawson's book
From Dawson's book
Maybe I can do this as a bunch of edits and only lose at most one when this board logs me out in a few minutes.
Here is my youtube fusor playlist url.
Make of it what you will. Steady refinement and improvement got us to around 10m n/s with about a kw input and 50kv. Then this crazy stuff. I made this right before the one that "got me". Probably luck, but it would explain some other's luck in the past nicely too. I like it when that happens, I'd rather not call Farnsworth/Hirsch/Meeks liars...just that they couldn't replicate it, and didn't claim they could. I think with our better data aq, we can overcome that.
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Richard Hull
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Re: New camera test

Post by Richard Hull »

Too bad there was no gamma spec available on those drill bits. It would have told th' tale.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Bob Reite
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Re: New camera test

Post by Bob Reite »

Maybe it's time for you to invest in a bubble dosimeter. Or a pair of them (minimum order anyway). They won't saturate. They will be accurate for pulsed modes. You have one near the machine for verifying neutron counts, and one that you wear and check frequently for neutron dose.
The more reactive the materials, the more spectacular the failures.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
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Re: New camera test

Post by John Futter »

Bob
Doug doesn't need a bubble dosimeter
I have stayed with him and seen his setup, and can verify very high neutron counts through silver activation and other meteorology.

I was personally in a 7 million neut per sec flux as we tried a few things over a year ago and Doug has made major strides since then.

At this flux even polycarbonate developed in IPA will show the neutron trails under a microscope. ---and yes I have done this at work under a 1 million per sec neutron flux. I have posted the results here on fusor .net
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Richard Hull
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Re: New camera test

Post by Richard Hull »

No fusor on earth has ever produced a neutron flux of 1 million n/s. We have this flux discussion often. We do isotropic emission numbers in neutrons per second. 7 million neutrons per second isotropic would have a 1 meter distance flux of only 167 n/sqcm/sec. Hardly a dangerous blast...... Flux is always given in neutrons per square centimeter per second.

If one lays on top of a running fusor, belly in contact with the shell, at 2million n/s isotropic, you might have a center of mass at 20cm and suffer a flux of 1200 fast neutrons/sq.cm./sec.

Again, let's speak correctly here. Drop the word flux from all your discussions unless you want to talk of true flux numbers in only the 100's range at a minimal distance where an operator might dare stay during operation. Flux varies as the inverse square with distance from the point of neutron production. Always specify isotropic emission as we have no real flux numbers to speak of even from the "hot runners" working near their limit.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: New camera test

Post by John Futter »

Whoops
sorry I meant neutrons per minute and yes isotropic
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Richard Hull
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Re: New camera test

Post by Richard Hull »

I think Doug was claiming doing up to 7 million isotropic per sec. back then. 7 million isotropic per minute is a pretty pathetic claim when speaking of a super running fusor. On a good day, I can do 1.2 million n/s isotropic which is very good for a standard 6" fusor operated conventionally @ 43kv.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Doug Coulter
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Re: New camera test

Post by Doug Coulter »

A bit OT on a camera thread, but on the other - anyone is welcome to come here, bring their own trusted gear and measure for themselves. I'm using some gear we calibrated at Richard's 2009 runs, with agreement by everyone that the numbers were what they were. Always been the case. I have a guest room, not the hilton, but OK most of the year.
Why guess when you can know? Measure!
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