Daniel Klasing Neutron Club Application

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Daniel Klasing
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Daniel Klasing Neutron Club Application

Post by Daniel Klasing » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:18 pm

I am a senior this year in high school and have been working on my apparatus for about a year now. A few days ago I managed to detect some neutrons via neutron bubble dosimeter and a helium-3 probe. I have not uploaded any intermediate progress reports but here is a brief summary. After my plasma club submission I worked for a couple of months on attaining better instrumentation for the measurement of pressure, and worked on the system as a whole in terms of its ability to hold and control a vacuum. After I had gotten the system to be able to produce a vacuum of 10^-6 torr and pressure measurement and control down to a science, I started experimenting with plasma again at much lower vacuums than my system was capable of. I used helium as a test gas both because it has the same molecular weight as D2, and it acts as a shielding gas for my oil diffusion pump making the probability of oxidization significantly lower. Using the power supply I had I attempted to produce a helium plasma within the pressure and voltage parameters necessary for fusion to occur if i was using deuterium. Sadly, the small power supply could not produce the voltage it needed to as the system was drawing too much current even at the 10^-4 torr range. After this I decided I needed a better power supply. I found some designs for a higher current power supply, tweaked it a little bit, and built it. It was essentially a variable transformer, a neon sign transformer, and a HV rectifier circuit. Sadly It didn't work either as it could only produce up to 7kV, I couldn't figure out why It wasn't working. (Later I figured it out). A couple months ago I managed to get my hands on a really nice laboratory grade power supply capable of producing 20kV at 7.5mA, this worked great! After I had a working system I needed some deuterium gas. I already possessed a small amount of heavy water and it was my plan to electrolytically separate the deuterium from it. I tried multiple configurations using regular water, multiple didn't work. what finally ended up working was a 1 to 10 ratio of sodium carbonate to heavy water leading to a condensing coil passing through a container of dry ice. Believe it or not, my electrodes consisted of a $20 pair of gold plated hoop earrings. After all of that I made neutrons. If you have any questions about my stages of development or need to see pictures feel free to ask.

Here are the three images requested:

Figure 1: Me and my apparatus. Picture was taken by Emmily Mobley with my camera.
IMG_2238.JPG
Figure 2: My fusion plasma. picture taken my me. I used a spherical coil of stainless steel wire as my cathode in the hopes that it would create a more uniform potential well. The purplish haze is conducive to that of a deuterium plasma, and the bright glow at the center of the cathode I believe to be conducive to a star mode. I believe it is because of my coiled core that the rays emitted by the star mode are not visible.
IMG_2231.JPG
Figure 3 and 4: My bubble detector images. pictures taken by me. These are the high sensitivity detectors producing 21 bubbles per mrem.
IMG_2234.JPG
IMG_2235.JPG
My Report:

​A​ ​stable​ ​deuterium​ ​plasma​ ​was​ ​maintained​ ​at​ ​a​ ​pressure​ ​of​ ​ and​ ​a​ ​potential 5x10^-3 torr with a potential well​ ​depth​ ​of​ ​-11​ ​kV​ at 7.5 mA ​for​ ​20​ ​minutes.​ ​During​ ​this​ ​20​ ​minutes,​ ​neutron​ ​bubble​ ​dosimeter #1​ ​developed​ ​11​ ​bubbles​ ​and​ ​dosimeter​ ​#2​ ​developed​ ​14​ ​bubbles.​ ​The​ ​average​ ​of​ ​these​ ​two being​ ​12.5​ ​bubbles.​ The helium-3 detector was run for part of that time and according to it, it detected an average of 76.2 CPS. The main reason I was using the helium-3 probe was to see if I could detect any D-T reaction neutrons. I didn't introduce any tritium, but you can probably see my train of thought. Later I am going to shave down my HDPE moderator for my helium-3 probe and see if that helps anything.

Feel free to ask any questions, or for more pictures, I will get back to you ASAP.

Thank you.

-Sincerely, Daniel A. Klasing

Tom McCarthy
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Re: Daniel Klasing Neutron Club Application

Post by Tom McCarthy » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:16 am

Daniel (Alex?), what size chamber are you using? Is it a 2.75" cross?

Tom

Daniel Klasing
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Re: Daniel Klasing Neutron Club Application

Post by Daniel Klasing » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:07 am

Tom McCarthy wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:16 am
Daniel (Alex?), what size chamber are you using? Is it a 2.75" cross?

Tom
Yes, Alex! Daniel is my first name. My spherical vacuum vessel is 6" in diameter and my cathode is 1" in diameter

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Richard Hull
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Re: Daniel Klasing Neutron Club Application

Post by Richard Hull » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:26 am

I have issues, a lot of them. The bubbles look large and are of varying sizes. (looks like an old detector or heat related bubbles.) Fresh dosimeters produce small, perfectly spherical bubbles of nearly equal size.

At the voltages quoted no properly functioning 3He detector would give the counts quoted. As you note, there was no pre-fusion postings of progress. The instrumentation is not shown and the poissor is large in diameter when, normally, at good fusing conditions it is a very small point. I only see a CDV-700 GM counter.

To get a decent number of bubbles at that low voltage you would need a much longer collection time.

If you could show us a mounted reset, (zero bubble), dosimeter before a run and the same mounted dosimeter after a run where bubbles are produced, it would be helpful.

Your 3He counter is just totally incorrect and not working to spec. If it is detecting neutrons, they are buried in a massive cloud of electronic noise.

There is just far too much missing here that a good fusioneer would be reporting in great detail.

Re-read the full requirements for the neutron club.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

Silviu Tamasdan
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Re: Daniel Klasing Neutron Club Application

Post by Silviu Tamasdan » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:46 am

Hm, I think I recognize the black box perched atop the brown wooden frame, the one with a blue USB connector at one end and a SHV connector at the other. I bet at the other end of that SHV cable is your 3He tube. In fact I think I can see the tube behind the wood, just below the middle of your chamber. A SNM32 I presume. If I'm correct, you're not using nearly enough moderator for the tube. And I mean by an order of magnitude or more. You have a thin 1-inch thick strip of polyethylene between the tube and the chamber. You need a minimum of 4 inches, and not only between the detector and the source but surrounding the detector on all sides. Most of the neutrons you'd be detecting are scattered from the mass of the moderator. You should also mount the tube inside a Faraday cage or equivalent to cut down on the EM interference that the nearby plasma and HV circuitry will generate. The corona tubes have a low SNR and are susceptible to electrical noise. Based on my experiments I estimate the SNR of the SNM32 at around 10dB or even less; because of that great care has to be taken to cut down the noise as much as possible. Or else you'll be counting sparks instead of neutrons.

I can't see a gate valve between your diff pump and the chamber. How are you throttling that pump?

Also, if the bottle under the table is what you used for your test helium runs you should be aware that the party-balloon-grade helium is very impure.

I'm not going to comment on the points that Richard has already addressed.
There _is_ madness to my method.

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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Daniel Klasing Neutron Club Application

Post by Dennis P Brown » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:49 am

First off, from what I can see in that single picture of your fusor, you apparently have a very nice setup.

Your voltage and power levels are extremely low for fusion. Not impossible but unlikely to detect using standard methods; that is, 11.0 kV at about 7.5 ma is just 83 watts. Generally, 200 watts is considered minimum power for detectable fusion using the methodology you appear to be using (again, more details on your He-3 detector system would be helpful.)

Can you demonstrate that you really had deuterium gas? Your brief discussion on that subject should, instead, be turned into a long, complete post with pictures because that is an important part of your claim. Using dry ice is a good idea but exactly what device/system did you use (pics of it and current/voltages used in the electrolysis would be nice) and how much did you make? How do you supply this gas to the reactor? Again, pictures of that setup would further support your claim. This would also help people here who want to create their own deuterium so that would be a very nice post.

How about a picture of the power supply and some closeups of your fusor system (because you spent a great deal of time building one and frankly, I'd like to see more of it!)

Where did you mount the bubble detectors? Some pictures of that setup are important. Your evaluation of bubbles in the detector does not appear to match your posting in the pictures (maybe the angle so I am getting the wrong count; again, more pic's can be helpful) - if the pic's are correct, then why are you excluding bubbles? (Aside, please don't claim half a bubble in data analysis; while a very minor point that just isn't a logical methodology to data reduction for physically significant objects like in bubble counts.) Do pay close attention to the issue Richard raised about your bubble shapes.

You mention a He-3 detector but I see no details of that system nor how you are reading the detector? Nor background testing, and tests with and without a moderator nor fusor emf noise issues with the detector/fusor. Also, your statement that you were looking for D-T events using a He-3 detector in a fusor is worrisome; that tends to indicate to me you do not understand the limitations of such detectors and the difficulties involved using them even to read D-D reactions in a fusor. Also, I am puzzled why would you think less moderator is more useful in a He-3 system to detect neutrons? Again, no details on that part of your system makes it impossible to evaluate your count claim.

Finally, regardless of what occurs here - Richard is the final authority (frankly, we lesser posters are simply trying to help you see any issues that might also turn out to be problems) - do keep at it. You most likely need a better power supply but your basic setup is really good. Also, you should study articles here on the forum about the use and issues related to He-3 detectors (I as well, have had major issues with these types of detector systems!) I am certain that once you address these points you will achieve provable fusion.
Last edited by Dennis P Brown on Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Silviu Tamasdan
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Re: Daniel Klasing Neutron Club Application

Post by Silviu Tamasdan » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:55 pm

Dennis P Brown wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:49 am
You mention a He-3 detector but I see no details of that system nor how you are reading the detector? Nor background testing, and tests with and without a moderator nor fusor emf noise issues with the detector/fusor.
I think I know a lot about the 3He detector system that Daniel uses. I think he has the same system that I do. :)
Only it looks like it's being used incorrectly.

Daniel - despite other claims, that system is not quite as out-of-the-box-working at detecting neutrons. I have posted quite a bit of material in the neutron and radiation detection section of this forum about things I'm doing to make it work reliably. Here are a couple of threads.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=11954
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=11983

If you post some samples of pulse waveforms that the associated software generates if you turn on "audit" in the software (setup section) before starting a count, I may be able to compare with real neutron pulse forms. A neutron source independent of a fusor (like the one I describe in those threads) is very useful for testing various aspects of your setup.

Also look at the amount of moderator that I'm using to achieve reliable detection of neutrons with that tube. It's about 8 pounds of HDPE (since then upgraded to about 14 pounds) and 12 quarts of mineral oil.

Don't get us wrong. We are trying to help you achieve a result with the system that you have worked hard to put together, that will allow you to qualify for the neutron club.

I will echo the concerns above about your voltages and power that goes into the chamber. You need a better power supply. I have posted some calculations for making my own PS - I don't suggest that you do the same, but rather look at the power requirements that I have set for it. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11985
You should be looking for better PS for your fusor. The 50kV Spellman supplies discussed here would be a worthwhile upgrade (especially if modified):
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11996
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11477
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4852
Those PS are still available as of the time of this posting https://www.ebay.com/itm/Spellman-50kv- ... 2742052311
There _is_ madness to my method.

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Richard Hull
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Re: Daniel Klasing Neutron Club Application

Post by Richard Hull » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:16 pm

Dennis and Silviu echo my sentiments. I would imagine at least 20 closeup images would be required to let us in on just what you have and what you are doing. Such images of each subsystem given over 3 or 4 months as you climbed the ladder would have been much more in line with the progressing report on your system that is recommended in the rules for entry into the neutron club.
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

Daniel Klasing
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Re: Daniel Klasing Neutron Club Application

Post by Daniel Klasing » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:09 am

Richard Hull wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:26 am
I have issues, a lot of them. The bubbles look large and are of varying sizes. (looks like an old detector or heat related bubbles.) Fresh dosimeters produce small, perfectly spherical bubbles of nearly equal size.

At the voltages quoted no properly functioning 3He detector would give the counts quoted. As you note, there was no pre-fusion postings of progress. The instrumentation is not shown and the poissor is large in diameter when, normally, at good fusing conditions it is a very small point. I only see a CDV-700 GM counter.

To get a decent number of bubbles at that low voltage you would need a much longer collection time.

If you could show us a mounted reset, (zero bubble), dosimeter before a run and the same mounted dosimeter after a run where bubbles are produced, it would be helpful.

Your 3He counter is just totally incorrect and not working to spec. If it is detecting neutrons, they are buried in a massive cloud of electronic noise.

There is just far too much missing here that a good fusioneer would be reporting in great detail.

Re-read the full requirements for the neutron club.

Richard Hull
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Here are some earlier Images of the Bubble dosimeters, with serial numbers matching the ones in my post, as well as a certificate of calibration.
IMG_2232.JPG
IMG_2233.JPG
IMG_2242.JPG

Daniel Klasing
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Re: Daniel Klasing Neutron Club Application

Post by Daniel Klasing » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:42 am

Silviu Tamasdan wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:46 am
Hm, I think I recognize the black box perched atop the brown wooden frame, the one with a blue USB connector at one end and a SHV connector at the other. I bet at the other end of that SHV cable is your 3He tube. In fact I think I can see the tube behind the wood, just below the middle of your chamber. A SNM32 I presume. If I'm correct, you're not using nearly enough moderator for the tube. And I mean by an order of magnitude or more. You have a thin 1-inch thick strip of polyethylene between the tube and the chamber. You need a minimum of 4 inches, and not only between the detector and the source but surrounding the detector on all sides. Most of the neutrons you'd be detecting are scattered from the mass of the moderator. You should also mount the tube inside a Faraday cage or equivalent to cut down on the EM interference that the nearby plasma and HV circuitry will generate. The corona tubes have a low SNR and are susceptible to electrical noise. Based on my experiments I estimate the SNR of the SNM32 at around 10dB or even less; because of that great care has to be taken to cut down the noise as much as possible. Or else you'll be counting sparks instead of neutrons.

I can't see a gate valve between your diff pump and the chamber. How are you throttling that pump?

Also, if the bottle under the table is what you used for your test helium runs you should be aware that the party-balloon-grade helium is very impure.

I'm not going to comment on the points that Richard has already addressed.
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I'm afraid you are correct about my He-3 counter. The guy who sold it to me said that's how much moderator I would need. He must have been mistaken.
The Faraday cage is an excellent point too. Do you think maybe a cylinder of paraffin wax wrapped in a grounded tin foil shell would work?

I am throttling the pump using a conflat fitted butterfly valve, from the tests I have run it works great.

Yes bottle under the table is helium, and according to the supplier it is at least above 80% purity. I don't exactly have access to a mass spectrometer, so I don't know the exact purity, but its a whole lot cheaper then the laboratory grade stuff, and it seems to be working just fine.

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