FAQ- regulations

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Richard Hull
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FAQ- regulations

Post by Richard Hull »

The issues revolving around what you can have and possess in the form of radioactives and what you can and can't do in regards to radioactive substances has varied over time. It is, therefore, important to know the rules. Likewise, there might be simple, desirable rules related to these issues regarding posting within these forums. This FAQ deals with some of these issues.

Currently:

Modern devices containing radioactive materials (signs, smoke alarms, etc)........

All devices containing any radioactive material that are licensed for sale to consumers or public useage are sublicensed to the buyer by tacit NRC agreement. As a willing consumer of such items you are responsible for proper disposal (returning to the orginal manufacturer/license holder). You are expected to consume or use the product in its physical form, as manufactured!! You are to use it for its manufactureed purpose only!! Any dismantling, and reuse of the nuclear material is a violation of NRC federal regulations. Any reselling of altered product is also a violation. As with all laws, enforcement is at the discretion of the enforcing body. Some terrible offenders may be let go or even never seen, while a very minor infraction may be dealt with in an insane and almost malicious manner, often based on public scrutiny, perception or knee jerk reaction by an agent.

example: Recently on e-bay, a woman selling intact, used tritium exit signs had those signs confiscated by federal authorities. Signs can be sold only by an original LICENSED manufacturer. They may not be resold by anyone even for use as an exit sign!! The woman avoided prosecution by rating out her source for the signs. It is assumed the feds went down the custody chain from here to find an original miscreant (the original purchaser or theif of the signs from the original purchaser. All signs are serially numbered and controlled and signed for by the purchaser at time of purchase. Signs in hand, the feds can work from both ends of sign custody.

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Old watches, instruments, clocks, military surpus items etc......

All of these usually contain amounts of radium far beyond any amount allowed in the public domain today. They are grand father claused under a variable, ill written, catch-all regulation as "un-important sources" of radiation in the public domain in older "manufactured goods". This includes collectables. Most are not bothered with unless a huge concentration of them in one spot are found to represent a public health hazard. (This is where they can do what they choose at any given momnent, in any given situation.)

example: Recently in California a giant warehouse full of old warbird instruments from WWII was closed down, the materials removed and the owners stock confiscated under the health hazard regulations of The California State Nuclear commission. (non-fed)

Minerals, ores, etc

Radioactive minerals fall under the same regulation as "unimportant sources", but with the special provision that the holder of such minerals and ores shall not crush, grind or process the material in any way to extract the radioactive material or concentrate it in any way! By law every citizen is granted a "General License". As part of this license, you can obtain, store and transfer over 100 pounds of naturally occuring uranium ore. (minerals) This is the Fed speaking and not your local or state government. Again, if the amount of ore found at one location is deemed by state or local authorities to pose a significant health hazard, they may do as they please, pretty much.

I know of no examples of rock hound collectors being hassled due to their mineral collections, though I have heard that some mineral shows will not allow radioactive minerals to be brought in or traded at the show. This is not the case in my state.

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License free quantities of isotopic materials.

A remnant of the old Atoms for Peace program, this regulation allows for the private sale and purchase of "sealed sources" for use in commerce and testing which contain what are considered to be amounts of isotopic product that if lost or misplaced, as sold, pose no public health risks. Years ago, (1950's-1970's), this included the same amounts of these isotopes sold as unsealed, user dilutable, tracer isotopes. Now, sealed sources are all that can be purchased under this regulation. This regulation survives due mostly to the short half-lives of most isotopes sold and as a way to avoid a lot of licensing paper work for the casual distribution of needed check sources for calibration of instruments.

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State and local issues

There are yet more layers in the bureacratic onion that can come up to bite you in the butt. Some States and even large cities have their own very special regulations and regulatory agencies outside of, and on top of, Federal regulations!!! Going afoul of just one of these entities can create more hassles than you ever thought exisited on planet earth. You are on your own here as each locale is different.

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Your responsibilities:

It is always a temptation to experiment with radioactives within the curious and experimental mindset. Ultimately, regardless of laws and limitations, it is a personal decision for the experimenter to determine his or her limits and restrictions.

It is hoped that everyone here is smart enough to recognize dangerous operations, manipulations and situations and have proper regard for the safety of their loved ones and friends.

More importantly, it is hoped that everyone here will adhere to a policy of not discussing in any of the forums any activities with radioactives that are risky or illegal in relation to their personal experiments.

As a guide, never post on the following.

1. The offering for sale of any licensed radioactive
2. The use of any licensed radioactive substance
3. The dismantling of a licensed manufactured item containing licensed radioactives.
4. Suggestions for use of any of the above in experiments.

Things that might be posted:

Results of radiation levels from materials purchased as curios or collectables to be kept and used as manufactured.
The sale or purchase of radioactive minerals for use as check sources or in experiments.
The discussion of radioactives or experiments at a theoretical level or in the historical sense.

Summary:

Simple logic using good cool heads and an eye at not violating or supporting the violation of laws should be your guide.

This FAQ may be added to frequently or as needed.

We are all in this work together. Lets do it safely and legally.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Brian McDermott
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Re: FAQ- regulations

Post by Brian McDermott »

What about the regulations regarding the fusor itself? People always ask me if fusors are considered unimportant by the NRC and I usually respond with a "yes." After all, one can count the number of known operational amateur fusors in the US on two hands.

That said, surely they must have some rules regarding neutron and x-ray sources.
drbuzzo
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Re: FAQ- regulations

Post by drbuzzo »

I called the NRC today and while asking about some other regulations (of which they were somewhat clueless), I asked them about some of the regulations reguarding fusion reactors, namely the Fusor. They had to transfer me to about 3 people before I talked to someone with a Ph.D. who had some idea what it was. He said that any type of reactor, fusion or fission, requires a permit, as well as accelerators but he didn't know what kind of permit I would need. He said that it would probably be considered a neutron generator. After more explaination he told me that it might be considered small enough not to require a permit, but I gather it was a gray area. I was also informed that there may be additional state regulations, eventhough my state is an NRC state. I called the state department of health (connecticut) and they told me that all accelerators require a permit. The type of permit depending on the application (and with a very large difference in cost depending on the application). My college operated a Van Der Graaf-based accelerator, and I don't believe they had a permit, but nobody ever seemed to make a fuss about it.

I've been VERY CAREFUL to call the feds when I have a question about regulations, because two years ago I was visited by the feds at my home laboratory. It was during the time when the country was really freaking out about the possibilities of a dirty bomb. They had been checking up on people who had been buying radioactive materials on ebay. They took a look around and saw what I had: uranyl acetate, thorium nitrate, uranium ore, several radium clocks and radium clock hands, some amercium sources from smoke detectors, some tritium sticks from exit signs and some sealed sources from Spectrum Techniques, including Sr-90 Tl-204, PB-210, Cs-137 and Co-60.

It was obvious to them I was an amateur researcher and did not have enough material to make any kind of weapon. Still, they were a little peaved by the way I was storing some of the stuff. Namely the uranium ore, which they said was not properly labled with the amount of radiation and ect. They weren't happy that I calibrated all my geiger counters myself and didn't have a valid seal on any of them from a certified calibration laboratory. They also didn't like the Am-241 sources from the smoke detectors. Interestingly, one of the guys looked through the box of tritium sticks and seemed completely unconcered with the glowing tritium tubes. He even told me they did not require labeling becasue there was no external radiation to them.

Two of the guys started debating whether they should seize anything. I was a little freaked out by the whole experience so I told them "take whatever you want. If you think it's a saftey hazard, take it. I surrender it volentarly"

They ended up taking a couple of the sealed sources (on the baisis that I had them sitting on my work bench and that's a no-no) and they took the Americium sources and some of the uranium ore. Apparently the stuff ended up becoming the property of the Yale physics department, who were looking to aquire some sources anyway. They were actually very nice about the whole thing, surprisingly. Didn't file any charges or forcably seize any of my stuff. They seemed releived, if anything, that I wasn't a terrorist with hundreads of radium clocks. They told me the only law I violated was that I had some empty containers labled radioactive, which was "miss-labeling" them. They left, leaving behind the tritium sticks and all the other material, and I never saw them again.
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Brian McDermott
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Re: FAQ- regulations

Post by Brian McDermott »

The guy you talked to on the phone was probably right, the Fusor is too small to be of any regulatory concern and is a gray area at worst. I wouldn't even ask about permits, for any one man will not be able to obtain one. They will charge an exorbitant fee, require you to have their idea of the right facilities, and require that you waive your 4th amendment rights to unwarranted searches and seizures. Speaking of which, did they have a court-ordered warrant when they "visited" your home?

From my experience in amateur rocketry, things like this are best left as a "don't ask, don't tell" matter. One man sent a letter to the ATF asking about the regulations on amateur rocket propellant (which had gone unnoticed at the time), which started a series of events eventually leading to all rocket motors containing more than 62.5 grams (about the size of a "D" flashlight battery) of propellant being labeled as dangerous explosives. Granted, there are loopholes (like if you make the propellant for yourself instead of buying it), but this example shows that "stirring the bees' nest" can have dire consequences.
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Richard Hull
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Re: FAQ- regulations

Post by Richard Hull »

Stephen can be sure that he is permenantly and for life on a LIST! The list is shared among many agencies. Any future sweeps in any future crisis may include another visit with people who might be much much nastier and far less casual depending on luck of the draw and their need to look like they "shut one down" to their bosses.

Once you are on a list you are there for life.

The fusor is small and any radiation minimal. couple with the near zero duty cycle over the life of the device there SHOULD BE NO ISSUES.

HOWEVER, just poke your head up out of your hole like the proverbial ground hog and it will be blown off, more than likely, by some petty local bureaucrat needing to show he is ON TH' JOB.

You only need one silly idiot who knows nothing except he's 'got one on the line' and if he can reel this one in, he can go to his bosses with pride and with just a little effort become the office hero. You are the little fish in the middle and no one gives a damned about a little fish in trouble. You are simply and without thought dropped into the bureacratic chum grinder.

It is happening with greater frequency than you know. We are not talking about major busts here, we are talking about folks just being hassled and PUT ON LISTS. Usually, no prosecution of any kind is forth coming. All this is far too expensive, tedious, time consuming and involves lots of paper work. ONLY LISTS ARE MADE and smaller incident reports with all your data are filed safely away.

Our fusors, to us, seem timid and low order. Scientifically, they are indeed, just that. Bureaucrats only know the regs books, unfortunately, and WILL always find the "hook in th' book" to snag who they want.

It is not surprising that Stephen was filtered through a sieve of unknowing folks at NRC. When he finally got an intelligent and understanding person who told him that it was PROBABLY OK ,the guy covered his bureaucratic ass with the specter of State and local Reg issues. Believe me, that guy doesn't do field work!!!

Agents sent into the field just sweep 'em up and bring 'em in. It is the old Vietnam motto in full force.......Kill 'em all.....Let God sort 'em out.

The general rule is..... always try to do that which is right.
The rule of rules is.....NEVER, EVER POKE YOUR HEAD UP.

Make sure that all of your work is safe and sane. Make sure you know the regs. Do your experiments. Record the results, quietly. Share with intimates and, as we do here, folks of similar intellect and abilities. In doing all of the this do not poke your head up by trying to impress your beer guzzling neighbor with the three huntin' dogs or the little, nervous nellie school teacher lady next door. They are easily upset, have little understanding beyond the fact that you seem weird and will turn you in out of fear quicker than you can blink.

Don't belive me?...........try it........you'll hate it.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Todd Massure
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Re: FAQ- regulations

Post by Todd Massure »

I'm fairly sure that almost all of us here are on a "list" just from doing searches with keywords like "nuclear", "fusion", "fission", "Tritium" etc.
Even if no human eye has seen our names, I think the lists exist.
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Richard Hull
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Re: FAQ- regulations

Post by Richard Hull »

You are undoubtedly correct. However there are lists ranked from the A list, (most dangerous- high threat - must watch), through the massive ZZ list of 1,200,000 names collected by "echelon", "carnivore" and other intelligence agency "keyword-ware".

If you are on the ZZ list and a quick check of your normal posting habits by some observer shows that your search or the keyword is a non-threating issue, you remain on their ZZ list, (again forever), but no further action is taken. If, however you have been visited, then you are moved way up on their list of lists.

SO..........there are lists and then there are higher and more active lists. Visits,even if they yield no action,place you higher up the chain of lists.

This is not paranoia it is just an exposition representing the actions of a normally functioning, cover your ass, bureaucracy charged with national security in a country chocked full o' nutballs, both foriegn and domestic.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Q
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Re: FAQ- regulations

Post by Q »

exactly right richard. some of my family have expirianced this bureaucratic ass-covering practice directly. it isn't pretty and it is almost never warrented. they don't care what they do or what happens to you. they only strive to be the heros that "caught the bad guy". be careful what you say and what you do. sometimes the scientific curiosity isn't worth the persecution.

Q
drbuzzo
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Re: FAQ- regulations

Post by drbuzzo »

You're probably right and I have no doubt that I am on "the list," but let me remind you that the entire reason I got visited by the FBI and NCR has nothing to do with me "showing off" my experiemntation to my neighboors or anything of the sort. they decided to visit me based on the fact that I had bought a few safe and legal radioactive sources, mostly for the purposes of developing some spectrography and detection equipmnet.

I had been working on a spectrometer which uses a computer's sound card to input the pulses from a scintillation crystal. A completely inocent thing, which posed a danger to noone. I bought many different styles and sizes of radiation sources to help me calibrate and test the spectrometer.

When they came to my laboratory, I was told that they had visited many people in the past week, including antique clock collectors, WWII collectors, contractors who had bought exit signs and many smoke detectors and ect.

One of the guys from the NRC made the suggestion that I call their public information number whenever I was in doubt of the regulations reguarding radiation sources. I've called them a couple times, and invariably, the people I talk to have no idea what they're talking about.

If you have questions about the regulations and want to talk to somebody who knows, I would suggest contacting the DOE, as opposed to the NRC or Applied Health Physics in Pittsburgh. They're very helpful.
xrayrandy
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Re: FAQ- regulations

Post by xrayrandy »

First an introduction, I have been a health physicist for 18 years, been R&D manager for an x-ray fluorescence analyzer manufacturer and am currently responsible for the generally licensed radioactive material program for the state of Texas. I am also a high voltage & X-Ray experimenter, have dabbled in fusion a little, and have stumbled across this site numerous times while researching this or that.

If you don't mind I would like to clarify some regulatory points.

Byproduct Radioactive material is licensed in 3 ways, 1) exempt (like tritium and radium watches) 2) generally licensed (GL) (Like exit signs and some density and level guages), and 3) specifically licensed material (everything else). Exempt devices can be transferred by and possessed by anyone, and can be handled however you wish, although you should avoid taking apart things like old radium pieces that may be leaking.

It is legal for anyone to possess generally licensed devices (except if your state recinds the general license, example New York). It is illegal to distribute generally licensed devices without a specific license giving you distribution rights. If you acquire a generally licensed device from someone who is not a distributor, you have not broken any rule, and you legally posses it under license by rule. If it isn't leaking or otherwise damaged the only reason It would be confiscated would be to be used as evidence against the illegal distributor.

In most agreement states (who regulate themselves) or NRC states (who don't) you must notify the regulatory agency in writing within 30 days of receipt, regardless of how it was acquired. Some may want you to formally register/license it, depending on what it is. You are not allowed to tamper with or dismantle the device, that includes smoke detectors. GL devices should be disposed of by returning them to the manufacturer or someone licensed to dispose of them. And, you notify the state again when you disposed of it. Some low level devices like smoke detectors don't require notification and can be legally thrown in the trash (may vary by state) by individuals, but generally businesses have to do it the hard way.

As far as the fusor goes, if you are building a fusion reactor it is licensed by the NRC. If a goverment official ever asks, you are not building a fusion reactor. If you are building a D-D neutron generator it is registered by the state as an idustrial machine source. If you are building a D-T neutron generator the possession of the tritium and the "research and development" is licensed by your agreement state or the NRC. There are a couple Texas tritium licensees who develop neutron sources for well-logging.

An R&D radioactive material license in Texas will run you about $3000 every 2 years, but will allow you to experiment with D-T fusion. You will need a radiation safety program and radiation safety officer (RSO), which is easier than it sounds. A RSO must have a minimum of a high school diploma and have experience in their industry, science degree, etc..., whatever it takes to convince the license reviewer that nobody will exceed any dose limit. An RSO class is unnecessary but doesn't hurt. Remember when calculating shielding as part of the application process that the cross section for, and hence the yield of D-T fusion is on the order of 10^5 higher than D-D fusion.

Registration for a D-D neutron generator will run about $700 every 2 years in Texas, and is classified as "other industrial machine". Note that the machine registration folks are primarily experienced with medical x-ray machines and other medical devices, and may not have a clue about a Farnswoth Fusor style "neutron generator". You may have to refer to it as an accelerator for them to be able to catagorize it. Once again a radiation safety program and RSO is required. Fusors are not exempt. Any electronic device that produces ionizing radiation must be registered, unless there is an exemption by rule (example TVs).

With either a license or registration you may not be allowed to work at your home over concern over exposure to the general public particularly minors.

The flip side of the regulatory business, is if you don't call us, or have someone otherwise turn you in, it is unlikely we will ever find you. Take that how you will. No matter what be safe.
Hayabusa
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Re: FAQ- regulations

Post by Hayabusa »

"After all, one can count the number of known operational amateur fusors in the US on two hands."

Do you know if there are any in operation in Canada?

Rog
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Brian McDermott
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Re: FAQ- regulations

Post by Brian McDermott »

To the best of my knowledge, there are currently 15 people on the "Neutron Club" list, and I believe only 8 of them are still doing fusion. All but 2 were in the United States, the other two being in Spain and the UK, respectively.

It is unlikely that there are any more than 20 additional amateur fusors worldwide, but I can't comment as to where they might be.
johnp
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Re: FAQ- regulations

Post by johnp »

On a search for neutron detection I ran across this old thread and I froze. A week ago I was approached by the campus radio station to do an interview about our 'interesting project', and I'd bring a physics student or two to talk about it. I thought, great publicity for the department. Now I'm thinking, I should either forget about the interview or be careful to not mention fusi*n, neutr*ns, etc, and concentrate on plasma and the excitement of building something cool.

Our university has no RSO anymore, and nothing hotter than a few button sources or radioactive minerals. We got rid of the hotter stuff years ago - we couldn't justify the expense of licensing.

Or is this an over reaction? I mean, there wasn't any bad fallout for the fusioneers after the WSJ article...
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Richard Hull
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Re: FAQ- regulations

Post by Richard Hull »

We have had fusor folks on TV, Radio, and in many national publications and published books, all with zero detremental results. The neutrons in a fusing fusor, especially a first pass item are not of any concern as most newbies first fusion is very weak. Even the most successful assemblies often require no shielding as the exposure time is just minutes.

It is your call on the public exposure.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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