The Hull prize!

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Richard Hull
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Re: The Hull prize!

Post by Richard Hull » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:32 pm

Thanks Jon, That results in a total of 7485 D-D fusions per watt input.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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Richard Hull
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Re: The Hull prize!

Post by Richard Hull » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:41 pm

Thanks Carl! Your offered contribution just made the Hull-Willis, Polywell prize a $400.00 prize!

Your terms are most acceptable in that 500k n/s should be a minimum level of acceptance for easy verification. Also agreed is that someone with ten counts or even a hundred counts on some electronic instrument will just not be accepted. Bubble detectors with as few as 30 bubbles over the run will be accepted, but it would be nice to correlate it to a backup instrument.

Finally, I agree that as this is an amateur effort and this forum group is open source, that all data must be made avaialble without secretive, "I can't talk about the specifics of this or that", evasiveness.

If they do it and beat the prize requirements, but hold back on any data asked for, then let them get their money from the sale of their world beating device that is so secret as we will not pay for secretive behavior..

As regards Steve's request, I doubt if the various limited data from some of the lower end fusioneers is avaialble or reliable at the lower fusion levels.

However, If fusioneers submit the figures and can back it up, I would be glad to post it on the fusioneers list. As you know, the few posted neutron figures that are there were milestones in isotropic emission with dates. Fusions per watt would be nice for an efficiency table, but I worry that the data from some ex-fusioneers might not be available (they may be gone) or not readily verifiable. To make the club you only need to prove neutron production and need not hit some target figure.

I would rather post a new efficiency names list based on good current data evolved from currently working fusioneers and their fusors. Surprizingly, I'll bet some of the lower neutron number fusor efficiencies might exceed Jon's best figure! One never knows until one does the work and does the math.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

Wilfried Heil
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Re: The Hull prize!

Post by Wilfried Heil » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:47 pm

Richard, could you put the $100 for p-B11 fusion on a bank account for the future lucky winner, so that it can grow and multiply in the meantime?

We can then place bets on how much it´ll be by the time it is taken.

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Richard Hull
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Re: The Hull prize!

Post by Richard Hull » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:58 pm

The money will come from my hip pocket at the time of win so the gambling crowd can take a hike on any possibility of an interest bearing prize, but still can lay bread down on when.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

Pascal Dennerly
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Re: The Hull prize!

Post by Pascal Dennerly » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:42 pm

Would it be a little over the top to suggest setting up a PayPal style fund that people could contribute to? I'm sure we could generate an interesting amount pretty quickly. And it would definately motivate people!

Does anyone know if this would a pain to administer?

Chris Trent
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Re: The Hull prize!

Post by Chris Trent » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:32 pm

Beats me, but it sounds like a great idea.

I also like the idea of a yearly "Tournament" much like the current X-prize contests.

Pay a certain percentage of the accumulated prize pot each year, 10% or so, to the amateur fusioneer with the highest continuous operating efficiency demonstrated in the previous year.

Open Source of course, all data and designs must be made public to qualify.

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Richard Hull
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Re: The Hull prize!

Post by Richard Hull » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:01 pm

I would not do that. Instead, I will honor my committment from my own pocket, having instituted the prize, originally. Carl is honorable, as well. That is enough. No one and nothing gets my money until it is earned. Meanwhile, I have full use of it, personally.

Yearly contest? 10% of the prize? No way..... this is a single, one shot claim on prize money for a specific achievement.....

Totally amateur,self funded, Polywell, D-D only.... exceeding 3750n/watt input, continuous for 3 minutes with proof of accomplishment. Just like a little junky simple, single grid fusor can do.

That is the bar. One taker only, no contests, no payout until the prize is won and the sum is that stated with no interest piling up.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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Richard Hull
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Re: The Hull prize!

Post by Richard Hull » Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:13 pm

I have re-stated the rule group based on all the above postings and discussions in the original first posting above as an edited addendum.

Check it out for the final word.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

nathematics
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Re: The Hull prize!

Post by nathematics » Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:04 am

Here are some calculations I did to see how close a device satisfying the conditions for this prize would come to being a profitable source of helium.

3750 fusions/s/watt = 3750 fusions/J

1 kWh = 1000 J/s *3600 s = 3,600,000 J

at five cents per kWh, 1 kWh -->
3750 fusion/J * 3,600,000 J = 13,500,000,000 fusion/$0.05

1 cubic meter helium @ 101.325 kPa & 15 degrees C costs about $3.00 from private industry.

101.325 kPa * (1000 L / m^3) / (8.314472 L * kPa * K^-1 * mol^-1 * 288.15 K) = 42.3 mol = 2.55 * 10^25 helium atoms

2.55*10^25 helium atoms / $3.00 = 8.5*10^24 helium atoms / $1.00

I'm assuming we could get two or three helium from every fusion

3 * 13,500,000,000 fusion/$0.05 = 8.1*10^11 Helium atoms/ $1.00

8.1*10^11/(8.5* 10^24) = approx 10^-13

So, according to my calculations, a device would have to be about 10^13 times more effecient than the minimum for this prize to become a profitable source of helium.

I wish I could compare this to the helium per energy dollar on an existing tokomak, but I don't have the right data.

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Re: The Hull prize!

Post by Richard Hull » Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:41 pm

Nathan's math is probably in error as useful amounts of anything will never be produced by fusion at the rate we are going for! I will do the math myself, (below).

Also, fusion of D-D produces 1/2 atom of the rare and hyper valuable and expensive He3 gas per fusion. (1 atom every other fusion or per two fusions). Fusion in D-D produces effectively ZERO normal helium atoms. This is the very inexpensive He4 sold in squat canisters for party balloons or in giant cylinders for welding shield gas. D-D fusion makes only He3 which is very rare and very expensive.

My calcs - I calculate the per atom cost for comparison (faster)

A very tiny lecture bottle of 10 liters of He3 (at STP) has a current price of ~$3000.00

A mole contains ~22 liters of gas at STP or $6600.00 worth of He3 in a mole.

A mole contains ~6X10e23 atoms. making each "store bought" atom worth roughly 10e-20 dollars each.

result #1 store bought He3 is 10e-20 dollars per atom.

A fusor producing even 4000 fusions per watt second would produce only 2000 He3 atoms per watt second or about 7 million He3 atoms per watt hour or 7 billion/kwh. (7X10e9atoms for $0.05)...........or........ 1.4X1011 atoms/dollar for a total cost of (reciporical) ~.7 X10e-11 dollars each.

Result #2: Fusor produced He3 gas costs, roughly, 10e-11 dollars each

This would make fusor produced He3 gas atoms roughly a billion times more costly than "store bought" gas.

A fusor produced mole of He3 would NOT cost $6600.00 like a mole of "store bought" gas but would instead cost 6.6 trillion dollars!



In summation, no fusion system will, for any purpose, produce any helium gas or any gaseous isotope, at anytime, at a net profit where it is the sole product of operation for the device.

You just can't "end run" city hall. Nature's got man beat by a very long mile.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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