I have to assume since this is an energy web site that you are worried about energy.
The way things in Technology usually progress is in three steps.
The first step is called proof of principal.
Another term is theoretical or experimental science.
You find out all there is to know about the process at this step.
The second step is called application. All the Knowledge of step #1 is tried out. Hardware is assembled and tested. Notes taken and most importantly feedback to improve the process
is tried until the desired level of perfection exists.
The third step is large scale integration of the application into society at large. This is the hardest step to achieve.
In all candid concern I would say we are still at step #1.
Although we have a process that seems to work it might not be scalable.
An optimist would say we are at step #2.
Until we get past step 1&2 there is little point to proposing engineering in any detail simply because we just don't know ....yet.
Things to do until we get past step 1&2.
The pschology is simple, people need hope of progress however tiny. Do some of the practical stuff while you do the blue sky stuff it tends to ward off the blues. Humans can only take the stick as long as there is an occasional carrot. See there Educational Pschology is good for something after all.
1. Use existing technology to furnish part or all of your energy needs at home.
To hedge my bets I have a 4 battery set (600 amp/hrs),a windmill (4kw) and coming soon a solar panel (60W).
I have about 2000 watts of inverters availible to blackout proof my house.
I have plans for a passive solar preheater for my house water heater.
Fusion needs cash.
Cutting the electric costs is a nobrainer.
And Yes ...Mr Hightech Pulsed Fusor guy uses fans instead of AC in Mississippi heat.
I'm wiring 12v dc to my bedroom fan as we speak.
A relay crossover will fire up an inverter at power failure
to provide a fan at all times.
Wash goes outside in summer.
To run a electric dryer in my area costs about $20.00 for three heavy loads.
My electric is only 31.00 a month. (Mostly hot water heating) ( it's on a timer... only runs two hours)
My neighbor paid 151.00 for his all electric house last month.
My house can be totally off the grid for a month without missing a beat..
Good thing too.... had about twenty power outages.
Use roof mount solar lighting.... no moving parts .....
the only things to move is the reflected light. ($60)
Too much?
Here's a painless way to cut out fifty dollars per year on each bulb replaced. At Sams Wholesale Club you can buy a set of four low consumption light bulbs for twenty dollars. Put a timer on the water heater.... It takes less than an hour to heat water up usually.
Being thrifty not only saves money but builds independence. In the coming times of shortages,
the smart money plans ahead. Might not be electricity at any price someday.
2. When your car wears out buy a hybrid vehicle. Yes Virginia hybrids will come in SUV flavors soon.
3. Airlock and insulate your house. No matter how old I get you would not believe the numbers of goobers who still have not taken this extremely simple step. Even if your house is superinsulated the front door and back door represent a serious leak point. Build an insulated mudroom to stow all your yuckies in and save a bundle on heating and cooling costs.
Just a few tips but many many more exist.
All my lightweight fusor stuff runs on some variant of 12 volts to ensure that I can continue in spite of power
outage.
New**************
I have a personal stake in telling you this now.
When I worked for the bomb company back in the seventies, ALL the folks in the room had the pit of the gut feeling that America was living on borrowed time.
That was in 1973! So lo and behold here comes the excesses of the feel good eighties. Ole Larry would get waves of laughs for doing his research thing on energy. I've met a lot of like minded people now ....
no longer feel like an odd duck. Not only in fusion mind you. Larry tended to do his own thing no matter
what....A stampede is brewing... The paniced realization by John Q Public is going to make the witch hunt in Salem look like a teaparty. So I will tend to resist making my fusion effort be a crash program.
I have found any crash program produces results that will have to be done over anyway. Resist the pressure to rush!
Larry Leins
Physics Teacher
What to do until the fusion jackpot hits
-
Richard Hull
- Moderator
- Posts: 15037
- Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
- Real name: Richard Hull
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits
If anyone thinks we are not still at step #1, they are severely self-deluded. We are at about 0.26 of #1.0 with the last.74 of #1 looking awfully hyperbolic. Still, we can't tell just yet.
There is, as of yet, no known continuous process of classically thought of HOT fusion which man can do beyond bombarding low Z targets with accelerators! Basically, this is what the fusor does, but with a lot more pizazz and a lot cheaper. Yes, Virginia, we are doing hot fusion! Unfortunately, the process is like 10e-9 fractionally efficient, at least 4 orders of magnitude worse than abysmal.
Step #2 will not begin until a process is successfully embodied in apparatus with well understood theory behind it. This could begin when a continuously operational setup approaches 90% efficiency. (not 2 millisecond burst modes) Such a time seems remote indeed.
Richard Hull
There is, as of yet, no known continuous process of classically thought of HOT fusion which man can do beyond bombarding low Z targets with accelerators! Basically, this is what the fusor does, but with a lot more pizazz and a lot cheaper. Yes, Virginia, we are doing hot fusion! Unfortunately, the process is like 10e-9 fractionally efficient, at least 4 orders of magnitude worse than abysmal.
Step #2 will not begin until a process is successfully embodied in apparatus with well understood theory behind it. This could begin when a continuously operational setup approaches 90% efficiency. (not 2 millisecond burst modes) Such a time seems remote indeed.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits
Some new stuff on this topic:
1. it seems that the group is getting to 50 percent mark on production. So I might say we are getting better at this fusion thing. So I going to stick my neck out and say we are at 50% of step one now. Step 2 is still out there but not as far away as when I first posted this.
On the practical side I have added my solar panel.
Still building my solar water heater.
I switched to propane heat rather than electric heat.
All that is left on electric company power is the waterheater,dishwasher,refrigerator and dryer.
I am now going to add a sixty watt panel this summer.
For a total of 110 watts roughly a little more that one light bulb but OH what a difference in my life it has made with just 50 watts this will double my capacity. The Electric bill is in the 20 dollar range now. I have had 15 Blackouts so far this year and have not missed a beat.
When the second panel and four more batteries are hooked in I will have almost a horsepower at my disposal. I could support running the frig,and a dehydrator to make fans a good deal more effective in the damp ,hot summers in Mississippi.
When small scale fusion is availible, I will be all set even if it only generates one hundred watts it will be used. Don Lancaster used to gripe that one of the main failings of solar and windpower was that you had to have a tremendous number of batteries (50) at hand to make up for still dark days of overcast and no wind. Well that has changed now for good due to a new type of fuel cell. That cell is the magnesium seawater cell. It uses plates of magnesium as fuel. It is resonably priced at $249.00 and the plates run 52 dollars a piece for the pm-122 (100w) alkali cell system at
http://www.fuelcellstore.com
It spans the gulf between a moderate (8) and huge (50) storage capacity for a wind solar set. It reduces the cost and still provides power during power outages.
Last weather borne blackout ,I was yet again the only lit house for miles. Settled back with a 12v brewed coffee and watched the tv on my hand held 12v LCD Color set.
I am ordering a 12v electric blanket from JC Witney next.
*****new******
I am now adding active cooling to my house.
The solar panel heats in the winter time like normal but changes gear and rejects intercepted solar energy in the summer and blows it to the air....reducing the cooling loads.
Larry Leins
Fusion Tech
1. it seems that the group is getting to 50 percent mark on production. So I might say we are getting better at this fusion thing. So I going to stick my neck out and say we are at 50% of step one now. Step 2 is still out there but not as far away as when I first posted this.
On the practical side I have added my solar panel.
Still building my solar water heater.
I switched to propane heat rather than electric heat.
All that is left on electric company power is the waterheater,dishwasher,refrigerator and dryer.
I am now going to add a sixty watt panel this summer.
For a total of 110 watts roughly a little more that one light bulb but OH what a difference in my life it has made with just 50 watts this will double my capacity. The Electric bill is in the 20 dollar range now. I have had 15 Blackouts so far this year and have not missed a beat.
When the second panel and four more batteries are hooked in I will have almost a horsepower at my disposal. I could support running the frig,and a dehydrator to make fans a good deal more effective in the damp ,hot summers in Mississippi.
When small scale fusion is availible, I will be all set even if it only generates one hundred watts it will be used. Don Lancaster used to gripe that one of the main failings of solar and windpower was that you had to have a tremendous number of batteries (50) at hand to make up for still dark days of overcast and no wind. Well that has changed now for good due to a new type of fuel cell. That cell is the magnesium seawater cell. It uses plates of magnesium as fuel. It is resonably priced at $249.00 and the plates run 52 dollars a piece for the pm-122 (100w) alkali cell system at
http://www.fuelcellstore.com
It spans the gulf between a moderate (8) and huge (50) storage capacity for a wind solar set. It reduces the cost and still provides power during power outages.
Last weather borne blackout ,I was yet again the only lit house for miles. Settled back with a 12v brewed coffee and watched the tv on my hand held 12v LCD Color set.
I am ordering a 12v electric blanket from JC Witney next.
*****new******
I am now adding active cooling to my house.
The solar panel heats in the winter time like normal but changes gear and rejects intercepted solar energy in the summer and blows it to the air....reducing the cooling loads.
Larry Leins
Fusion Tech
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits
It looks like a number of us are into alternative energy sources. Here is a link to the article I wrote for Home Power Magazine on my setup.
http://www.homepower.com/magazine/gs_0011.cfm
http://www.homepower.com/magazine/gs_0011.cfm
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits
Hi Phil:
Nice setup!
I had a very simmilar experience with my electric company. I thought about intertie but it was a no go
in Mississippi. I would have to pay state production tax on juice I made! So like you I went gorilla solar.
I cut my living standard a bit and went very low key.
The company made a special trip out to see if I had magnets on my meter. I have reduced my consumption tremendously.... 2000 dollars a year to 1000 then 500 then 220 dollars a year on a very small setup. That's when the stuff hit the fan with the utility.
Can't wait to add my other panel and reduce the electric to 110 dollars a year. I get by on 50 watts of solar because the windmill takes up the slack during the winter. I have done solar most of my adult life.
Larry Leins
Fusion Tech
Nice setup!
I had a very simmilar experience with my electric company. I thought about intertie but it was a no go
in Mississippi. I would have to pay state production tax on juice I made! So like you I went gorilla solar.
I cut my living standard a bit and went very low key.
The company made a special trip out to see if I had magnets on my meter. I have reduced my consumption tremendously.... 2000 dollars a year to 1000 then 500 then 220 dollars a year on a very small setup. That's when the stuff hit the fan with the utility.
Can't wait to add my other panel and reduce the electric to 110 dollars a year. I get by on 50 watts of solar because the windmill takes up the slack during the winter. I have done solar most of my adult life.
Larry Leins
Fusion Tech
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits
Wow!
The fun just doesn't stop in these days.
My goals have been met but now I'm tackling the bain of modern existance. ...refrigeration.
I am not fond of eating strickly out of cans.
Yeah ... I have a thermoelectric frig.
A 12 refrigerator is next I guess.
At a cost of my entire fusor project to date!
My gas dryer is next.
If gas keeps marching upward...woodgas I guess.
Getting by until fusion comes!
Larry Leins
Fusion Tech
The fun just doesn't stop in these days.
My goals have been met but now I'm tackling the bain of modern existance. ...refrigeration.
I am not fond of eating strickly out of cans.
Yeah ... I have a thermoelectric frig.
A 12 refrigerator is next I guess.
At a cost of my entire fusor project to date!
My gas dryer is next.
If gas keeps marching upward...woodgas I guess.
Getting by until fusion comes!
Larry Leins
Fusion Tech
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits
My Electric Company really hates me now!
My bill last month was $21.60.
By eliminating my electric dryer I cut the electric by $15 a month.
Water heaters next.
Led lights.
What a wonderful gismo these things are.
I can afford to keep the house lit up now.
Which brings me to this thought will only a 1 mw fusor do enough in the new world being carved out in energy saving appliances?
My next problem is will they pull the meter ... do I care?
We will have to see.
Keep on fusing!
Getting by until fusion comes!
Larry Leins
Fusion Tech
My bill last month was $21.60.
By eliminating my electric dryer I cut the electric by $15 a month.
Water heaters next.
Led lights.
What a wonderful gismo these things are.
I can afford to keep the house lit up now.
Which brings me to this thought will only a 1 mw fusor do enough in the new world being carved out in energy saving appliances?
My next problem is will they pull the meter ... do I care?
We will have to see.
Keep on fusing!
Getting by until fusion comes!
Larry Leins
Fusion Tech
-
marsbeyond
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2003 3:42 am
- Real name:
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits
The question should be how do we make the fusion jackpot hit? I think the answer is similar to the X-prize. We need a 10 million dollar prize set-up to induce a hundred thousand garage tinkerer/inventors to achieve breakeven fusion without government support.
It looks like it's working for space!
http://www.scaled.com/
http://www.hobbyspace.com/
It looks like it's working for space!
http://www.scaled.com/
http://www.hobbyspace.com/
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits
I always liked the idea of the x-prize, doing something like that for fusion would definitely spark some life into i think
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits
I think you guys would be right but things in fusion are not rational.
Fusion has so much promise that the government gives out prizes all right!
Booby Prizes.
How so?
The xprize is a mere million dollars.
So far 20 BILLION has been spent on non working systems.
A million wouldn't even buy paper and pencils for the academic folks who have turned fusion into a run on the taxpayer piggy bank.
So you see the prize already exists.
That's why we do things this way.
We are the runts of the litter.
The trough is out of the reach of the normal citizen.
They degrade our efforts as neutron sources..so be it.
This is a long term race for most of us that's why I posted this article.
Keep on Fusing!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Fusion has so much promise that the government gives out prizes all right!
Booby Prizes.
How so?
The xprize is a mere million dollars.
So far 20 BILLION has been spent on non working systems.
A million wouldn't even buy paper and pencils for the academic folks who have turned fusion into a run on the taxpayer piggy bank.
So you see the prize already exists.
That's why we do things this way.
We are the runts of the litter.
The trough is out of the reach of the normal citizen.
They degrade our efforts as neutron sources..so be it.
This is a long term race for most of us that's why I posted this article.
Keep on Fusing!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
-
marsbeyond
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2003 3:42 am
- Real name:
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits
Ummmm,,,, the X-prize is 10 million but your point is still taken Larry. They found a Billion in cash sitting over in Bahgdad. Saddam was getting 50 Billion a year in oil and that was AFTER UN sanctions. Bechtel got a paltry two thirds of a Billion to do "restoration" there. (That will be a two lane freeway to the oil feilds.) Gas prices are still around two bucks a gallon in Vegas and tourists are not flying in droves due to the war or SARS or the bad economy. All in all I don't think Bush is going to get re-elected because the economy is still in the dumps. Bush II, the sequel, has turned out to be so much like Bush I. He wins the war fast, but doesn't get the leader and gets killed in the next election for forgetting about the economy. Maybe Clinton II (Hillary) will turn out to be ten years of prosperity, (but I hear Monica's hosting a reality show now)! Who knows? When is the next election anyway? 2004 doesn't seem like it can get here soon enough.
My point is even 20 Billion is nothing for fusion. Heck we are getting sucked for 80 Billion for this war. Sooner or later the American Tax Payer will wake up and start wanting to send their money in directions that are profitable to THEM instead of the "Oil Elite", I wouldn't be suprised if Nader gets elected because the shrinking American middle class is getting fed up with republican AND democrat politics as usual.
My point is even 20 Billion is nothing for fusion. Heck we are getting sucked for 80 Billion for this war. Sooner or later the American Tax Payer will wake up and start wanting to send their money in directions that are profitable to THEM instead of the "Oil Elite", I wouldn't be suprised if Nader gets elected because the shrinking American middle class is getting fed up with republican AND democrat politics as usual.
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits
The problem before us is quite possibly very much like the human powered aircraft challenge. The Kremer prize was offered in the early 50's for the first demonstration of human powered flight. It went unclaimed till the late 70's
The guys who won the prize, some very clever Californians, did so by being extremely pragmatic. They first determined from some hang gliding observations, what it would take in HP to sustain a hang glider-like aircraft. Then they scaled the size (theoretically) until the HP required matched what an in-shape human could put out. Then "all" they had to do was build it!!
In the course of which they discovered that it had to fly very slowly or the drag losses would be too large. The actual aircraft, named the Gossamer Condor almost didn't cast a shadow!. I t was built to be repaired with scotch tape.
The end result defied almost all existing dogma about man powered flight.
Later this same group produced the Gossamer Albatross which sailed across the English Channel.
This could provide a model for the amateur fusor work. First it is necessary to determine what it will take to cause enough fusion events per second to generate practical energy output.
Second, we must then figure theoretically how this could be done. By increased beam density, high potential, or whatever.
Then comes the how to do that...practically.
Finally, comes make it efficient and cleaner, smaller, cheaper.and .etc,etc...
There may be incorrect scientific "dogma" to identify and discard.
It won't be done by railing against the heavens and power authorities or the science community.... but by a pragmatic step by step process.
This group of amateurs has as good an edge as anyone, and better than most.
Dave Cooper
The guys who won the prize, some very clever Californians, did so by being extremely pragmatic. They first determined from some hang gliding observations, what it would take in HP to sustain a hang glider-like aircraft. Then they scaled the size (theoretically) until the HP required matched what an in-shape human could put out. Then "all" they had to do was build it!!
In the course of which they discovered that it had to fly very slowly or the drag losses would be too large. The actual aircraft, named the Gossamer Condor almost didn't cast a shadow!. I t was built to be repaired with scotch tape.
The end result defied almost all existing dogma about man powered flight.
Later this same group produced the Gossamer Albatross which sailed across the English Channel.
This could provide a model for the amateur fusor work. First it is necessary to determine what it will take to cause enough fusion events per second to generate practical energy output.
Second, we must then figure theoretically how this could be done. By increased beam density, high potential, or whatever.
Then comes the how to do that...practically.
Finally, comes make it efficient and cleaner, smaller, cheaper.and .etc,etc...
There may be incorrect scientific "dogma" to identify and discard.
It won't be done by railing against the heavens and power authorities or the science community.... but by a pragmatic step by step process.
This group of amateurs has as good an edge as anyone, and better than most.
Dave Cooper
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits
Thank you Dave:
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Rather than waste energy shaking my fist at the sky, I have methodically gathered the stuff to do the work.
If I can do it anyone can.
If you would have told me I'd have a nim bin, all conflat fusor, power supply and vacuum pumps on 25 dollars a week...I would have said sure you will.
I'm not saying the four years of Ebay hell have been that fun but it was a challege for sure.
Since I'm at a low level retirement pay it simply took longer.
But now I'm past the stage of want into the doing stage now.
The new folks have not seen the whole picture...yet.
Patience is a virtue when cash in short supply.
Keep on Fusing!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Rather than waste energy shaking my fist at the sky, I have methodically gathered the stuff to do the work.
If I can do it anyone can.
If you would have told me I'd have a nim bin, all conflat fusor, power supply and vacuum pumps on 25 dollars a week...I would have said sure you will.
I'm not saying the four years of Ebay hell have been that fun but it was a challege for sure.
Since I'm at a low level retirement pay it simply took longer.
But now I'm past the stage of want into the doing stage now.
The new folks have not seen the whole picture...yet.
Patience is a virtue when cash in short supply.
Keep on Fusing!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits
Hi folks:
A lot has occurred since I first posted this item back a few years ago. Fusor forum membership was 50 . No hack attacks had occurred yet. Gasoline was 1.34 dollars a gallon and LP was 1.27 dollars a gallon. Reel forward to 2004. Forum membership
is 150 . Gasoline is 1.74 dollars per gallon as of Monday ,LP is now at 1.87 dollars a gallon. This winter I have expended 1400 dollars on LP alone. Had I not been able to do business on Ebay
,my spare cash for fusion would not have been availible. The new inverter tig welder will be serving double duty in doing fusion but also to build solar collectors for heating water to heat my house. I had such good luck heating water that I'm stepping up a notch...heating my house.
I posted this update for all the new members with stars in their eyes. I still have stars but my feet are warm too.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
A lot has occurred since I first posted this item back a few years ago. Fusor forum membership was 50 . No hack attacks had occurred yet. Gasoline was 1.34 dollars a gallon and LP was 1.27 dollars a gallon. Reel forward to 2004. Forum membership
is 150 . Gasoline is 1.74 dollars per gallon as of Monday ,LP is now at 1.87 dollars a gallon. This winter I have expended 1400 dollars on LP alone. Had I not been able to do business on Ebay
,my spare cash for fusion would not have been availible. The new inverter tig welder will be serving double duty in doing fusion but also to build solar collectors for heating water to heat my house. I had such good luck heating water that I'm stepping up a notch...heating my house.
I posted this update for all the new members with stars in their eyes. I still have stars but my feet are warm too.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech