Atoms for Peace

Reflections on fusion history, current events, and predictions for the 'fusion powered future.
Post Reply
guest

Atoms for Peace

Post by guest »

This is an interesting and distressing revelation. As a child I grew up in mostly rural communities in the south east. Lets just say that a child interested in science and technology was forced to look for his own entertainment. I usually poked around the local and school libraries. The books contained in these libraries were great. Most of them related to rockets and rocket engines, weapons of all types, and science in general. Most of the books which I use in practice and find most useful even today are from the first half of this century. I always wondered why there seemed to be so many great books on these subjects from that time period in the libraries. There were hardly any new books on similar subjects. I now suspect that most of these books were supplied to these libraries as part of the atoms for peace program. Utilizing the info in one of these books I made rocket engines using potassium nitrate and sugar. You cook the sugar and potassium nitrate until the sugar melts, then pour it into casings. You have to be careful not to get above a certain temperature or the mixture will auto-ignite. The book had burn spots on the pages where a previous experimenter was careless.

What a shift in political climate we have had since then. Most of the things that I did as a child would land you in jail these days, and these books would probably be considered too politically incorrect to publish. (Hell they might as well be terrorist manuals, according to the knowledge must be dangerous book burning crowd). The ATF would have had a heyday with my bedroom. The interesting thing is that I got caught in a kind of time warp. I guess that the atoms for peace program worked, because I grew up reading these books, experimenting, and guess what, I became an engineer. I dutifully went to college, obtained BS and MS degrees and off to the space program I went, only to find out that I had prepared for a time which was at its peak before I was born. The skunk works was disbanded and NASA was in a hopeless bureaucratic and political quagmire. No one really wants to go to space anymore. All dressed up and nowhere to go. Bummer. Social engineering gone awry. Turns out I should have studied computers, business and finance, then I would have the resources to fund my own space program. Another part of the puzzle is now in place, you find them in the damndest places: Atoms for peace???
guest

Re: Atoms for Peace

Post by guest »

While it sad that the USA has not got a usable space
craft and othe large scientific projects or new ideas - fusion - under water cities - Lunar / Mars habitats - Atomic
stuff have not developed, I think we needed the last 30+ years for humanity to grow up. Only now is the climate
changing from the "Cold war" era to the "Global Village".
Until we get more a "global Village" view point will progress be made in the spirit of "Atoms for Peace" but
not with the 60's techology but something suited to the
real needs of people.
guest

Re: Atoms for Peace

Post by guest »

I have had similar experience to Monty Roberts:
I grew up with a soldering iron in one hand and a Flemming flask in the other, reading the same sort of books. Now a father, some of the politically correct aspects hit home when my daughter feels she needs to say she wants to grow up to be a "girl-scientist" instead of "scientist" like I did. However, the books I have to teach her from are the same 30-60 year old books I learned from with whitebread males in all photos Newer books and kits are certainly same, but where the ZnS reaction that facinated me was, is now soap bubbles. Where have all the great nerd books gone and who will write the next ones? Web sites like thois one are one real ray of hope- build it yourself fusion??? Way COOL- I just wish the scientific apparatus my old books say could be had for a few pennies could be had for less that a king's ransome!!


R
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14991
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Atoms for Peace

Post by Richard Hull »

Hamfests still supply a lot of good old fashion scince nerd stuff and at reasonable prices, quite often.

The old books are still good and no new ones ever need be written. Of course if you want to write a modern tome featuring hands on science of the type we had, but modernized to include modern high energy projects like homemade C02 lasers, magnetic guns, and the like, and pay for the law suits as little Mary or Jimmy kill themselves or bystanders, go right ahead. In the old days when a kid killed themselves in experiments, the family sucked it up, mourned the lose of a child and got on with the living of life. Today they are lookin' "to get paid". The child seems to wind up as just a means to an end. (In lou of a child, I'll take cash! syndrome) A lot was different in the old days. Folks took responsibility for their acts and children were taught what was stupid and what was right and wrong. If a child did somehting stupid it was a childlike act and not a libalous one forced upon the little tyke by some remote party who now owed us money.

No, the old books are just fine. Those who are stirred by the true fire within, will find them. Where there is a will, there is a way.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
DaveC
Posts: 2346
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 1:13 am
Real name:

Re: Atoms for Peace

Post by DaveC »

I agree. I've had the same discussions with my kids (now grown) that we couldn't easily buy the things I once had to play with... a real chemistry set... zinc dust and sulfur powder... etc... Of course it is still available.. but just not at the hardware store.

And I believe it has had a negative effect on some kids, dampening their interest in science. Not just with chemistry, but with all scientific things.

The ligitous atmosphere we now live in, is probably thje principal cause of the " do good - zero risk " attitudes we are fussing about.

Dave Cooper
guest

Re: Atoms for Peace

Post by guest »

Yes, When I was a kid, finding a new and detailed book of experiments or the acquistion of some treasure such as an old TV or radio would have me spinnin' on cloud 9 for weeks.

My first transistor was the venerable old CK722 and I mounted it on a 2 X 2 pine block held on with fahnestock clips to avoid flexing the delicate leads as it moved from circuit to circuit built from plans in Radio-TV News, Popular Electronics or Electronics Illustrated. 90% of my early projects were vacuum tube based. My mom and dad didn't nestle in around me trying to protect me, but left me to my own devices most of the time. I got my share of 600 plus volt B+ shocks, too. The odor of burnt selenium and bakelite or phenolic often filled the air in mis-wired startups.

Every time I did something wrong, I learned from it and never blamed others for my failures. I learned to appreciate the sights, smells and sounds of a good electrical fire if it resulted in a learning experience. (It often supplied a few chukles, too as I would here, " what th' hell are you doin' up there" come through the heat register from down stairs.)

In chemistry experiments I got acid burns with the classic nitric acid protein stained hands, Sulfuric acid holes in my jeans, flash burned eyebrows and singed hair, etc. I was given a succession of ever larger chemistry sets each year from 1955 to 1960 culminating in the giant senior master deluxe Chemcraft by Porter with the plastics and atomic energy labs in a four fold out super set. Chlorates and nitrates were included along with the poisonous nickel compounds. Kids were protected against obvious grave dangers, but not sheltered to the point of having no fun.

Things were not boring, they were as exciting and as alive as we cared to make them. We could make them that way only because we were allowed to have the tools needed to learn over a broad and often dangerous spectrum of disciplines.

Richard Hull

P.S. I just reread this post......What an old Fart, I am.
guest

Re: Atoms for Peace

Post by guest »

Don't feel bad Mr. Hull... I also had a Senior Master
Chemistry Set . When I got bored with it.... I built my own lab using Perfect Chemical items. For a lot less
than any college setup in 1964 , I had a whole 100
dollars in it. I used 1930's Industrial Chem Engineering books ( They used a lot of bath tubs then)
Made sulfuric acid from sulfur dust over vanadium pentoxide. (just take vanadium grease and set it ablaze) Made fuming red nitric acid from a dry mixture
of santiflush and saltpeter. Can't talk about what I made in high school... plenty of boom.
What I find most distressing is the total lack of regard
for hard won facts that is not passed down to suceeding generations. The trouble is our society is all fluff with no meat today. Th kids I bumped into in Ole Miss are sadly underprepared to do anything!
I believe two travesties at work have darn near capsized the Republic of America.
In my humble opinion here goes:
First and foremost is the grossly stupid idea from
the sixties that all people must be equal. Sounds harmless right! Unfortunately rather than cater to the high performers, teachers have to ignore the cream of the crop and settle for the lowest common denominator. While the lowest common denominator
occupies most of in class work , the quantity of material covered falls as well. People that were high performers then do one of two things, a. They see the
futility of learning and quit school or b. sit like a sea slug and get by. When the most promising students end up like this , hardcore knowlege courses do not get taken at college. In my state only a handfull of people become physical science teachers, most of the
teachers in science have little mathematics. In the year 2k at the Education School , I was the lone ranger
with over fifteen years of mathematics through D.E.
The best education I ever experienced was to play hooky for a year and hang out at the Dallas Public Library. Even in 1969 my high school was devoted to the God of sports. I had just moved to Irving Texas
from Bethesda Maryland. When I turned into a sophomore, I requested to go to junior college.
Request denied, my butt was worth 5,000 dollars
to the school. I took all the courses that nerds took
... you know punch card computers, chemistry , physics
calculus ect. Things sailed along until my senior year,
my ESTS physics teacher got a job at General Dynamics and was replaced by a related math teacher.
A few weeks of futility later, I hatched my plan .
I fell into the plan A catagory.
I took Drafting in the summer time (what a nerd thing to do.).
Interestingly the print shop was next door , I made plenty of friends because I took print shop in eighth grade and could releave guys to get a coke ect.
I had my print shop buddies print me up a stack of hall
passes. I signed my Latin teachers name and away
I went. What did I do with this free time ? Shag girls .. No. Hang out in pool halls and sneak cigarettes .. No.
I went to the Control Data Institute in downtown Dallas.
I was just sixteen and had no drivers license but a permit to drive accompanied. I took the test and gain ed my license early. The rub was that the Institute would accept no one under eighteen (truency laws.)
I went back to my print shop buddies and got a fake ID
for ten dollars. I went six months and graduated from the Control Data Institute under a false name.
It took the school nearly nine months to figure out what I had done. They tried to flunk me out of school... I took all my finals and passed to graduate. Later I took my fake I.D. and my diploma with me to the N.C.R. Regional Systems and explained to my interviewer what I had done. After a thorough entry test , I was hired at age eighteen as a lead operator on a Century 200 mainframe. My boss read my qualification sheet and just laughed , he told me I was not the first.
I held that job until I was drafted at age nineteen.
Just imagine what would have happened today if
the same action was taked, I would be turned into a Prozac zombie just like the rest of disaffected children
in school. (sadly about 20% of kids are turned into prescription junkies by the time they reach junior high)
That brings us boldly into the next issue ... social
engineering .... Greatful Dead style. In grand sixties style is the idea that if an action causes stress in an individual the whole group must change in order that that individual feels good. If all else fails break out the herb and cute girls. The school system has adopted this foward looking stuff in order to render a more
integrated education system. If less intelligent students feel threatened by the more intelligent students , the school in order to get by the crabby parents and a herd of lawyers must act swiftly.
Most administrators would agree with Al Sharpton
that most of the stuff that gets you into college does not apply to his people or people who don't do English.
It would be a racial crime to teach this stuff by dead white guys over say the study of southern culture or ebonics.
(yes in these politically correct times this is what Liberal kids do with forty thousand somallians these days.)
I once asked a representative of Jessie Jackson
about the works of George Washington Carver. He had never heard of the creator of peanuts. The sad part was that the representative of the Dali Lama Knew the facts.
He was schooled in England and had a proper education. The schools have come to the sad fact that you can't raise all boats so punch holes in the high risers and let them sink. Rather than confront ignorance ,the schools have takened the Greatful Dead approach to schooling , Dont teach content,
Dope Em up,Conformity,Conformity,Conformity, and if
you not so high that you can't sit on bleachers here
are some skantliy clad girl chearleaders arranged in order of increasing breast size. I'm Not Bitter.. I'm a teacher.

Larry Leins
Physics Teacher
guest

Re: Atoms for Peace

Post by guest »

Boy do I identify with you guys. I hated school. It took me 28 years to finally figure out that the problem was I was bored out of my mind. No I don't want to learn the same english lesson again this year; yes I still remember fractions from last year, could we please move on. Since the system was so boring I found myself skipping scool, building rockets, airplanes, cars etc. I realize now that high school was just a wase of time. I learned nothing of real value, mostly it just frustrated me to no end because of the pandering to the lowest common denominator. Then came college, WOW I finally met some people who could think!! Then graduation, corporate america UGH high scool again. So this is where these people went the last 7 years. Can't deal with that. Start my own business, wish somebody had told me how the world really worked in school. I wouldn't have struggled nearly so much. Now I guess you could call me an elitist capitalist techno pig. But I have had a real dose of reality, and it is nothing like the crap they teach in school. I never even heard the term cash flow or interest in high school, no wonder all the lemmings are in debt up thier necks, GOTTA HAVE THE NEW TOMMY PANTS MAN, INTEREST IS FOR NERDS, put it on the plastic!! A diservice for sure.

My good friend finally in exasperation pulled his child from the public scool system. He is an intelligent, energetic child, who gets bored with the typical school routine and boring lessons. Their response is "he has attention deficit dissorder, he needs to be medicated" My friend was really worried about his son until I visited one night and he was telling me the story about medication etc. I said "he reminds me of me, I don't think he is too hyper, just bored" It was like a light went off. They took him out of school and started teaching him. They cover the same material in half the time. The kid is much happier. They get together with other home schooled kids and go on field trips and play sports so the kids get social skills. It works great. He will probably go to college rather than high school, and with the business education my buddy and I give him, he will be much better prepared for the real world.

Saddly this is what it has come to. I have always wondered why the Europeans seem so much less a plaything of the corporations, and it occured to me, they typically have a much better education. Nothing surprised me more than the different attitude in Germany towards technical people vs the US. We should all have big cars and McMansions, never mind about energy or space flight or anything HARD, we have 100 channels of crap and cheap oil. Oh well, enough ranting for one night.

Monty
r_c_edgar
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:27 pm
Real name:
Contact:

Re: Atoms for Peace

Post by r_c_edgar »

As bleak as all this sounds, I feel compelled to point out that motivated, self-directed individuals still exist. They're not encouraged so much as it seems they used to be, but everything is still possible for someone with sufficient motivation. In my experience, all you need to do is show that you *can* indeed excel, and then you'll get whatever support you need.

Perhaps I've had unusual experiences, but I've found that all you need to do is prove yourself, and you'll be allowed to go as far and fast as you want.

Here's my experience. Like others, I found high school to be virtually pointless. I was going nuts from the feeling that I was completely wasting my time. So, a couple friends and I decided to take matters into our own hands. We enrolled at the local community college and took night classes. By the end of the summer between 10th and 11th grade, I had finished two calculus courses, a physics courses, and a course in programming. During 11th grade I took another physics course, a third calc course, and two english courses. Back in highschool, one of my friends and I convinced a teacher who was working on his Masters' in mathematics to do an independant study with us, based around a selection of the material he was taking for his degree. I had enough spare credits built up as transfers from the community college that I graduated a year early.

Now I am at the University of Michigan, and I've found things much the same, in the sense that all that was needed for me to go as far and fast as I want was to prove that I can.

None of this was really anything special - anyone who was really motivated could have done the same. The largest difference between myself and many of my peers is that I vented my frusteration with things by going out and creating a situation that I could be happy with. That's all there is - you just need to go out and work to make things right for you. I think if you work hard enough for it, you *will* succeed in the end.

--Ryan Edgar
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14991
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Atoms for Peace

Post by Richard Hull »

I am glad this thread developed this way. It is good to see how closely many of our guys are bound by similar attitudes and backgrounds.

Ryan makes a great point. You make your own happiness and point your ownself. NO ONE OWES YOU ANYTHING! You EARN what you get by application and the sweat of your brow. If you are driven to do higher level activities than those around you, someone, somewhere will notice and assist in SOME WAY!

Excellence, specialness, and creativity stand out as they always have, inspite of the great social leavening attempting to grind or seduce the best into mediocrity. People who value excellence and achievement by deed, shepherd and foster them as they always have.

This has been a nice discussion and I see many of us do think in similar fashion. It may seem to some rather imperious on our behalf to look about and see so many doltish clods, but even the meanist intelligence has got to see the vacuuous expressions, go nowhere, do nothing lifestyles and wonder at what is to become of the future.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Post Reply

Return to “Fusion --- Past, Present, and Future”