LENR news ACS conference

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Richard Hull
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LENR news ACS conference

Post by Richard Hull »

Well it is back to the chemists........

At the ACS four day conference, a paper is expected to be delivered today by SPAWAR scientists investigating LENR. SPAWAR is under the auspices of the Naval Research Lab. They claim amazing new evidence of neutrons from chemical reactions using developed plastic neutron capturing substrates within a reacting LENR assembly.

It is the Chubbs (father and son) at NRL in DC that did the first serious, and rather hopeful government research and report on CANR/LENR in the early 2000s. The folks at SPAWAR are continuing the effort.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 031709.php

More grist from the mill, I suppose. I still hold, as I always have, that there is an unappreciated zone between chemistry and classic nuclear physics. This may be another example of "lobe pecking" at new science.

We will see how, or if, it is picked apart in some fashion.

Chemists brought in the last lucky donkey of new physics. Will they do it again?

As this appears to be a press release, I would put about as much hope behind it as I would a press release saying that the ITER had hit break-even.

I guess we'll have to await the real report.

Richard Hull
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Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
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Chris Bradley
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Re: LENR news ACS conference

Post by Chris Bradley »

The claim of 'excess heat' always serves to provide as much distain and disbelief as required.

To stand over some nuclear device in an experiment in which a claim of dispensed measurable heat is determined by those neutron emitting nuclear reactions* demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding.

*(yet curiously not a neutron flux high enough to register in a bubble detector, nor does it appear to concern these experimenters to proceed without suitable dosimetry)
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Re: LENR news ACS conference

Post by David Rosignoli »

Richard,

Thanks for the link. Unfortunately, replicating these types of experiments can get expensive for the amateur. And not a lot of funding for this type of pure science that is on the border of chemistry and nuclear physics.

Chris,

The way I read that web page is that they measured "excess heat" and neutrons (and X-rays and Tritium). So, they think they are doing low energy nuclear reactions since those researchers are not away of a chemical reaction that does this.

I have not read those experimental reports, but it is not clear that it is a lack of fundamental understanding. This is not a standard nuclear reaction, if it is a nuclear reaction to begin with.

These are small neutron fluxes. So, the researchers are not worried about high radiation exposure. One can justifiably question the neutron measurements with such low numbers, or even ask if CR-39 can be affected by some other means.

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Chris Bradley
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Re: LENR news ACS conference

Post by Chris Bradley »

If they claim that there may be both chemical AND nuclear processes going on, well, that claim could be inspected.

Whilst they are claiming nuclear-reaction-induced heating, then it is absolute hunkum. A couple of joules of neutrons up close would kill 'em dead before their ultra-sensitive and most superior calorimeters (??) would be able to measure the effect.

I've no issue at all with the idea that there may be some sort of low temperature nuclear reaction possible. That is not a claim I can dismiss. What I can definitely dismiss is a) any sort of measurable heating from D+D->4He+hv and b) any sort of measurable heating from D+D->T+p/3He+n that doesn't also have the capacity to kill you dead, dead, dead!

But let's just deal with the notion that because they don't know any chemical reason for heating that it must be a nuclear reaction. What a complete travesty of logic! Surely if they think there may be some nuclear process never been seen before they must also have to contemplate that it may be a chemical process never previously been seen!!!
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Re: LENR news ACS conference

Post by David Rosignoli »


>But let's just deal with the notion that because they don't know any chemical reason >for heating that it must be a nuclear reaction. What a complete travesty of logic! >Surely if they think there may be some nuclear process never been seen before they >must also have to contemplate that it may be a chemical process never previously >been seen!!!

I agree with your comments. They must also contemplate a new chemical process as well.

For the nuclear part, many proponents in this field dismiss the label "cold fusion" because they do not believe it to be a fusion process. If it is nuclear, it must be "something else" for the reasons you have given. IMHO, if it is a new discovered process, it is some interaction in the solid state level that may be both chemical (electronic) and nuclear in form.
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Re: LENR news ACS conference

Post by Frank Sanns »

As a chemist I have contiued to wonder why proper technique is not applied. To me, it seems that two cells should be set side by side inside a large calorimeter and separated by a small thermal flow detector. The current should flow in series through the cell in question and also through the control. By measuring only the thermal differential it should be very clear to see if something is really going on no matter what is going on in the lab or the power supply or by noise.

Frank Sanns
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We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Re: LENR news ACS conference

Post by Dan Tibbets »

I think I saw at least some preliminary results from these navel researchers a few years ago. I recall someone deployed thier protocal to ~ 6 other labs, and he claimed five (?) of them were able to reproduce the results. My impression then was that they were detecting high energy protons in the plastic (though in this link they are specifically mentioning neutrons) which was placed very near the electrodes within the liquid of the cells. I don't know what protection the plastic detecters had from the solution. Critics have claimed that clorine or other ions in the solution might cause the results.
http://www.earthtech.org/CR39/index.html

Cold fusion (by it's old name) has certainly been interesting. While the research is cloudy and inconsistant, expert panels have been divided on it's validity and worth. In 2002-2004 an expert panel was split 50/50 on weather to recomend further research.

If the results have now been fleshed out with more data and reproducability (and some of the criticisms addressed) this should place the field on firmer footing.

Somewhere in a past thread Tom Ligon related Dr Bussard's idea (early 1990's?) on what might be going on. I haven't followed the field enough to know if this matches any other theories of what is going on.

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Re: LENR news ACS conference

Post by Dan Tibbets »

As a side note, the below link (page 4) mentions using shielded CR39 plastic to detect D-D fusion in a glow discharge, though with deuterium loaded cathodes(?).

http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Rousse ... icatio.pdf

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Chris Bradley
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Re: LENR news ACS conference

Post by Chris Bradley »

A bit more on this in another, less one-sided, article;

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/mar09/8407
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Re: LENR news ACS conference

Post by Richard Hull »

Thanks Chris. This was bit more considered and gave more info. than the flash ACS press release. Of course, this comes post paper delivery and can give a bit more detail, though the actual paper, itself, should be consulted and I am sure it will be.

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Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
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Steven Sesselmann
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Re: LENR news ACS conference

Post by Steven Sesselmann »

I am with Chris on this one...

Just for fun I used my fusion calculator to work out the bubble count in a standard BTI bubble detector, of the 20 year old claim that Ponz and Fleichmann measured 1.75 watt of excess heat.

Enough bubbles to satisfy the most sceptical science journal editor...

In fact at 1 meter radius you would get 13,000 bubbles in 1 second!

As Richard has suiggested before, do three counts and take the average

Steven
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Re: LENR news ACS conference

Post by Chris Seyfert »

Hello,

I have not been able to track down any info on the recent ACS presentation, but I did find the following short paper on the subject by at least the same principal investigator:

"Triple tracks in CR-39 as the result of Pd-D Co-deposition: evidence of energetic neutrons"
http://www.newenergytimes.com/Library2/ ... Tracks.pdf
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Re: LENR news ACS conference

Post by Richard Hull »

This paper is recent enough to be if not, the paper, a precursor to it. Thanks for the heads up on this. I will read it as I eat lunch today.

Later....

I have read the paper and two things came out of it.
1. These folks aren't claiming any heat whatsoever.
2. The length of the experiment and, thus, exposure of 2-3 weeks is not very satisfying. A lot of stuff can happen with cosmics/solar in two or three weeks.

I am stunned they didn't offer up a 2-3 week exposure image of CR-39 placed in another location from their experiment. I sure would as a simple control measure.

I liked the 200X image more. Show me an isolated exposed piece placed in the same relative plane and attitude located elsewhere at 200X. If it is as crowded as their run piece, I would be very suspect.

They spent a lot of time convincing themselves and us of the value of the triple hits theory.

I just want to see two pieces of CR-39 at 200X one from the experiment in the cell and one done for the same time period and in similar relative orientation placed on aunt jane's night table two blocks away.

Until then, I am most skeptical. Am I the only guy seeing this missing from this process. We are treated to a lot minutia and theory but the simplest test images are not included to my thinking. I would have been happier but still given pause if they did show two pieced so exposed as I suggest with similar amounts of bubbles in them, but then note a meaningful 2% higher count in their cell piece.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
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Re: LENR news ACS conference

Post by DaveC »

Richard -

I think they've left a few sensible controls undone.

It's interesting that you mentioned cosmic rays and solar activities here. I had been mulling over just what effects to expect from high energy particles on an electrolytic experiment using heavy water.

In a polarization maintaining cell, the electrodes in heavy water would be increasingly "doped" with D and even tiny quantities of naturally occurring T. It is known that H can permeate steel pipe over the course of years at essentially room temperature. This has occurred with cathodic protection systems.

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Re: LENR news ACS conference

Post by Richard Hull »

The serious reports of LENR that have had runaway cells or successful heating events, always note that the PD had been extremely heavily loaded. In some old, (10yr +), papers, cosmic rays were hypothesized as possible trigger events to high load cathode runaway events.

In the LENR world, a lot of Scanning, Tunneling EM images have shown vast landscapes of micro melted cratering of the surfaces of PD cathodes that ranaway. Most researchers look at LENR as totally a surface based process.

Note runaway is when cell heating begins and is beyond the electrical power input and tends to continue after the cell power is cutoff. Heating often continues for minutes or hours. Some few cells have been observed to boil off or, more often, evaporate their electrolyte water content after power is removed. (very rare)

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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