Higgs

Reflections on fusion history, current events, and predictions for the 'fusion powered future.
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Jim Kovalchick
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Higgs

Post by Jim Kovalchick » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:27 pm

While not much of a surprise because of the immense hype, the Higgs boson has been found. Yep, I know it's not fusor related, but the relevance for us here lies in the lesson about the huge value of collaboration. The Higgs would not have been found without a community of effort, and the cooperation emphasizes the value of this forum. Competition is fun and drives us, but discoveries at the next levels of physics including fusion will only come through sharing. Congratulations and thanks to all those here who prioritize helping others explore.

Jim K

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic ... iggs_found

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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Higgs

Post by Dennis P Brown » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:56 pm

Not real news for a number of people here. And for one, they will not buy this experiment at all. Further, they have made a good argument about this ‘discovery” and many others now just pushing concepts of scatter theory a bit too far.

I too am a bit confused – the physicist claim this Higg’s field produces ‘mass’ but the example they often give is inertia, not mass. So, which is it? Does the field produce mass and/or inertia – they are not saying and this really makes me wonder if they even understand this aspect of the field’s properties? If they don’t even have a handle on this, I have to wonder what they do understand about this field.

While the particle gives evidence that the Higg’s field might exist, being unable to explain inertia is a big deal (if its doesn’t, in fact, handle that issue) – even Newton wondered why inertia occurred and what its relationship with mass was.

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Chris Bradley
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Re: Higgs

Post by Chris Bradley » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:37 pm

Jim Kovalchick wrote:
> here lies .. the lesson about the huge value of collaboration.
.. plus US $10 billion to build LHC !!!!

Bear in mind that this is a report of the signature of a particle with ~125GeV mass. It is *consistent with* the underlying theory for the occurrence of a 'Higgs boson' around that mass. I would hazard to suggest that if one were to flip through the annals of science history, then one might come to the idea that it is odds-on to be something completely different to what's expected !!...

One problem to bear in mind at this end of science is that spending $10bn building a 27km long subterranean accelerator is not likely a science experiment that'll be repeated in labs elsewhere. So confirmations are going to be difficult. Bear in mind this is the heaviest particle ever detected before, I'd venture to ask a few questions on how the detection kit is assured of doing exactly what is expected of it. A bit like if you are trying to weigh a ton on scales that were only calibrated with a pound test mass. (I'm sure it is dealt with, but I'd still like to see a simpleton's explanation.)

I think the thing with competition and collaboration is a delicate balancing act of human behaviour: At first there are personal competitions (theories, ability to explain/persuade, capability to demonstrate results, etc.) which are often much-maligned, then like a rolling snowball it may, or may not, begin to attract interest and slowly you get collaboration to some 'next stage' goal. Then it starts over.

In this case, the 'Higgs boson' was simultaneously suggested by a number of scientists. So I think it was much more readily accepted straight away than if one had come up with it, so here we saw the positive 'competition' side of the history of science, rather than the negative 'marginalisation' side to it.

Mankind climbs an escalator of achievement - each unbalanced and tentative foot-step up is taken by individuals, but it needs a collective effort to push clear up onto the next step from behind.

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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: Higgs

Post by Jim Kovalchick » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:10 pm

Chris Bradley - "Mankind climbs an escalator of achievement - each unbalanced and tentative foot-step up is taken by individuals, but it needs a collective effort to push clear up onto the next step from behind"

Well said Chris.

Dan Tibbets
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Re: Higgs

Post by Dan Tibbets » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:29 am

A misprint. The Higgs particle was assigned an energy of ~ 125 GeV, not TeV. CERN can achieve energies of ~ 7 TeV. I doubt it can detect particles with energies ~ 20 times this, even with statistical fudges. The TEVATRON had achieved 100s of GeV and was able to predict the energy window for the particle. I don't know why it took CERN to claim the detection . I assume it had something to do with the new detectors and statistics- there were a lot more particles at appropriate energies to play with.

Dan Tibbets

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Richard Hull
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Re: Higgs

Post by Richard Hull » Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:40 pm

I would have expected nothing less than the Higgs discovery announcement. Funding shall continue.

Excitement's over folks....Nothing to see here, just move along please.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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Chris Bradley
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Re: Higgs

Post by Chris Bradley » Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:37 pm

A link to the published paper (free access!!!):

http://pdn.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 1043323576

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Richard Hull
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Re: Higgs

Post by Richard Hull » Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:24 pm

A fun read for one and all.........and?

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Higgs

Post by Dennis P Brown » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:50 pm

Didn't get past the first page but I didn't realize that the Higg's field is what makes fusion possible - allowing the electro-weak (aka weak nuclear force) to occur. So, the Higgs particle has significance for fusor work.

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