Is this the plasma?

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Yan Rui
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Is this the plasma?

Post by Yan Rui »

I bought the diffusion pump is installed on the device, design of vacuum pressure is 10-5pa
The picture is my test results, DC transformer transformer or 20kV 25ma.
At present, I feel the effect is still not satisfactory, I want to ask my friends in the forum, how to improve my design.

I want to apply to join the Plasma Club, but now I do not have what experience, I do not know what needs to be done to improve it.

So I hope to get your help!!
Thanks a million.

Yan Rui
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Yan Rui
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Re: Is this the plasma?

Post by Yan Rui »

Add that

My last two pictures are joining the deuterium gas and without any gas energized state.
I feel the effect difference.
So I'm confused my experimental equipment there need to be modified.

Yan Rui
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Richard Hull
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Re: Is this the plasma?

Post by Richard Hull »

Yan,

I have placed your name in the plasma club. Nice work!

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Yan Rui
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Re: Is this the plasma?

Post by Yan Rui »

Richard Hull wrote:Yan,

I have placed your name in the plasma club. Nice work!

Richard Hull

Thank you for supporting me!!
Thank you very much!
However, I still have a lot of questions to learn from you. As follows:
According to the experimental video of me before, I made some summary.
This is me from video shots, the vacuum degree is very high, the experiment for electricity for about 5 minutes.
Among them, in the absence of the deuterium gas experiment was conducted for 2 minutes, into the open in deuterium gas under the condition of experiment was conducted for 2 minutes.
In the whole process of experiment, video recorder and the position of the tank has not changed.
The first picture is not by deuterium gas under energized condition, I found that although the ionization, but the centre of the sphere brightness and four weeks without bright, even can see within the center wire.
The second picture is by deuterium gas case just energized state, the center of the sphere brightness than surrounding high brightness many.
Third is a deuterium in the presence of electricity for 2 minutes, compared with second pictures, body length increased about 3mm, the length is very small, I'm through video fast discovery. My guess is that because the heating causes deformation of steel wire.
Through the analysis of a few pictures, I want to ask you about a nuclear fusion reaction can guess must exist, and if so how should I improve the equipment to make it more obvious effect. If I guess wrong, I should correct the problem.
!
Because, my next plan is to improve my experiment, the ultimate goal is to join the neutron club.
Preliminary arrangements for me:
1, determine the experiment is likely to produce neutron source.
2, improve our equipment, especially the sealing and vacuum valve to ensure that equipment maintenance operation in more than 20 minutes.
3, the purchase of the voltmeter ammeter and vacuum gauge used to record the data of qualified.
4, the purchase of effective measurement of neutron instrument recording whether neutron.
5, sorting the data out of all parameters in the reaction process and image data.
Once again thank you and the other people's help forum!
Thank you.
Yan Rui
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Is this the plasma?

Post by Chris Bradley »

You are still at too high a pressure. You are simply wasting deuterium gas, if you are actually putting any in. Just don't bother trying to put anything in at the moment and try to suck out as much air as possible and run the thing with air.

You need to throw that gauge away that you are showing photographs of. It is completely unsuitable for this sort of work. You need a gauge capable of resolving microns of pressure down to 3oom lower.

Forget deuterium right now. Forget that gauge, it is showing nothing meaningful. I think I have said this before, less directly already, so I'll try not repeating myself in case I sound annoying, but you are going about this the wrong way. If you measure the actual volts going in right now, they will be little more than 1500 to 2000V, tops and that's because the pressure is too high.

I do not know how you are sealing that chamber, but it looks like some gloop you have stuck around the ends of the cylinder. Firstly, the cylinder is no good, you are not going to fuse in that, and secondly the gloop is no good to get a good vacuum.
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Yan Rui
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Re: Is this the plasma?

Post by Yan Rui »

Chris Bradley wrote:You are still at too high a pressure. You are simply wasting deuterium gas, if you are actually putting any in. Just don't bother trying to put anything in at the moment and try to suck out as much air as possible and run the thing with air.

You need to throw that gauge away that you are showing photographs of. It is completely unsuitable for this sort of work. You need a gauge capable of resolving microns of pressure down to 3oom lower.

Forget deuterium right now. Forget that gauge, it is showing nothing meaningful. I think I have said this before, less directly already, so I'll try not repeating myself in case I sound annoying, but you are going about this the wrong way. If you measure the actual volts going in right now, they will be little more than 1500 to 2000V, tops and that's because the pressure is too high.

I do not know how you are sealing that chamber, but it looks like some gloop you have stuck around the ends of the cylinder. Firstly, the cylinder is no good, you are not going to fuse in that, and secondly the gloop is no good to get a good vacuum.


Thank you for your help.
In fact, when I bought the diffusion pump, its technical personnel to put forward a problem. Is my former mechanical pumping up rate is low, the second 0.5L, slow pumping it only to the vacuum state, in addition to the diameter of the airways smaller and diffusion pump pipe is too long, will affect the pressure. ,
My plan is to replace the mechanical pump 4L per second for pumping gas.
The cylinder is sealants and rubber adhesive, and then use the metal extrusion together, around the pore sealing adhesive.
I know better sealed with metal tanks, but its cost is too expensive, I through the study of the information on the website, found that there are many nuclear fusion reaction completed using glass materials. I really want to learn their successful experience.
Thank you very much!
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Is this the plasma?

Post by Chris Bradley »

Though your diffusion pump connection drastically reduces its pumping ability, I would be far less concerned about that than the chamber. Pumping speed may affect how fast you get to your base pressure, but it doesn't affect base pressure that much unless the leakage rate is huge.

Your pumping is fine, you chamber is where the improvements need to be made. You will waste your time and money until you get that chamber to seal properly. You need a proper gauge to help you figure out when you have a properly sealed chamber.

There is simply nothing more to do until you have a proper gauge and work on the chamber's sealing.

OK, so I am repeating myself after all (!), but the chamber is the problem. A 4l/s mechanical pump is a huge pump already. Mine is 0.6 l/s (2 cu ft/min), and I would guess that is little different to most here. That doesn't sound like the problem. The essential problem is you have no idea what pressure you're operating at, and are not improving your chamber.
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Re: Is this the plasma?

Post by Yan Rui »

Chris Bradley wrote:Though your diffusion pump connection drastically reduces its pumping ability, I would be far less concerned about that than the chamber. Pumping speed may affect how fast you get to your base pressure, but it doesn't affect base pressure that much unless the leakage rate is huge.

Your pumping is fine, you chamber is where the improvements need to be made. You will waste your time and money until you get that chamber to seal properly. You need a proper gauge to help you figure out when you have a properly sealed chamber.

There is simply nothing more to do until you have a proper gauge and work on the chamber's sealing.

OK, so I am repeating myself after all (!), but the chamber is the problem. A 4l/s mechanical pump is a huge pump already. Mine is 0.6 l/s (2 cu ft/min), and I would guess that is little different to most here. That doesn't sound like the problem. The essential problem is you have no idea what pressure you're operating at, and are not improving your chamber.


Thank you again for your help!
As you said, I am looking to improve the vacuum solution, but I have no experience, so the consulting a lot of people, but the results are not the same.
I thought it was a mechanical pump problem, said pumping speed too low will affect the diffusion pump capacity, but this is the technical personnel of the diffusion pump and I said, I'm not sure Is it right? Main reason.
If the mechanical pump is not a problem, I think I Is it right? Should replace the appropriate valve, because I now use valve is generally high pressure cylinders using this equipment, may be not suitable for use in vacuum environment, vacuum environment or in the presence of air leakage problems.
I think I should install a suitable vacuum table, this can let me know exactly the actual vacuum readings, so that I can install and configure the observation that different good vacuum effect change.
But improved in vacuum chamber, I have no experience, do you have what good advice?
Thank you very much!
Yan Rui
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Richard Hull
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Re: Is this the plasma?

Post by Richard Hull »

Fusion should never be attempted in a glass chamber. When real fusion occurs, excess ion and electron bombardment will chip crack or flake off chips of glass and the chamber will fail. A glass chamber is fine for a demo fusor at 10kv, but fusion of any significance occurs above 30kv and that will destroy a glass fusor chamber. Fusion has never been successfully done and proven in a glass chamber.

Chris is correct about the gauge. You must get a good electronic vacuum gauge.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Yan Rui
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Re: Is this the plasma?

Post by Yan Rui »

Richard Hull wrote:Fusion should never be attempted in a glass chamber. When real fusion occurs, excess ion and electron bombardment will chip crack or flake off chips of glass and the chamber will fail. A glass chamber is fine for a demo fusor at 10kv, but fusion of any significance occurs above 30kv and that will destroy a glass fusor chamber. Fusison has never been successfully done and proven in a glass chamber.

Chris is correct about the gauge. You must get a good electronic vacuum gauge.

Richard Hull

Thank you for your suggestion, I decided, must use metal containers. And the use of a vacuum high quality meter.
But I have two questions to consult you.
Once I used a metal material, how to solve the problem of the conductive equipment, after all, my plan is high voltage input 20kV directly in the tank, but the diffusion pump me by metal tube link, it is at the bottom of the furnace of a 220V, once the electricity short circuit fault, the problem is everyone is how to avoid?
A further problem is, I still need to install a small metal container glass in the window, I saw the forum's success is the way the installation, I would like to ask how to avoid the effects of neutron and electron on the glass.
Thank you very much.
Yan Rui
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Re: Is this the plasma?

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Your concern of the electrical hazard of high voltage in a metal container is correct but a bit misplaced -first off, the metal "case" that will form the primary body of the fusor will be grounded (and make sure this is a good ground so any accidental electrical 'shorts' by the high voltage supply do not allow the case itself to become raised to a dangerous high voltage as well. That could be lethal.)

As for the electrical issue and the fusor main case, the idea behind any and all high voltage systems is delivering this dangerous power to where it is needed in a safe manner - as such, you MUST either purchase or construct a high voltage vacuum grade feed through that can handle at least 35 kilo-volts and the level of current you plan on supplying. To do real fusion 20 kV is too low. You must be careful since many high voltage feed through's sold on ebay can not handle voltages that typical fusors use. So be very careful in both buying feed through's and cables that can safely handle these very high voltages. Also, the fusor central electrode needs to be mounted to that feed through so the feed through needs to be mechanically strong compared to other applications where the device only carries high voltage (to remain isolated from the metal case.) See the many designs here on the forum that show this procedure.

There are far too many ways to address your question of how to install a window - again, look at the many fusor designs here on the forum. Just be sure the glass is thick enough to withstand not just the vacuum but problems of the electrons (erosion effects and micro-cracking) and x-ray hazard (stopping this radiation.) The neutron flux is rather low so it is unlikely to be an important factor.

Many here build fusors and should offer far better information but remember the high voltage feed through must be capable of safely handling both the voltage/current and any mechanical forces from the electrode.

Remember - the two greatest dangers any real fusor has is mainly the very high voltage which is lethal, and to a lessor extent - possible x-rays (which any good metal case will easily stop.)
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Yan Rui
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Re: Is this the plasma?

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Dennis P Brown wrote:Your concern of the electrical hazard of high voltage in a metal container is correct but a bit misplaced -first off, the metal "case" that will form the primary body of the fusor will be grounded (and make sure this is a good ground so any accidental electrical 'shorts' by the high voltage supply do not allow the case itself to become raised to a dangerous high voltage as well. That could be lethal.)

As for the electrical issue and the fusor main case, the idea behind any and all high voltage systems is delivering this dangerous power to where it is needed in a safe manner - as such, you MUST either purchase or construct a high voltage vacuum grade feed through that can handle at least 35 kilo-volts and the level of current you plan on supplying. To do real fusion 20 kV is too low. You must be careful since many high voltage feed through's sold on ebay can not handle voltages that typical fusors use. So be very careful in both buying feed through's and cables that can safely handle these very high voltages. Also, the fusor central electrode needs to be mounted to that feed through so the feed through needs to be mechanically strong compared to other applications where the device only carries high voltage (to remain isolated from the metal case.) See the many designs here on the forum that show this procedure.

There are far too many ways to address your question of how to install a window - again, look at the many fusor designs here on the forum. Just be sure the glass is thick enough to withstand not just the vacuum but problems of the electrons (erosion effects and micro-cracking) and x-ray hazard (stopping this radiation.) The neutron flux is rather low so it is unlikely to be an important factor.

Many here build fusors and should offer far better information but remember the high voltage feed through must be capable of safely handling both the voltage/current and any mechanical forces from the electrode.

Remember - the two greatest dangers any real fusor has is mainly the very high voltage which is lethal, and to a lessor extent - possible x-rays (which any good metal case will easily stop.)


Thank you very much for your sharing experience.

I began to replace the suitable transformer at present, below is my trial and experimental data:
I chose a transformer, its original design purpose is used for electrostatic precipitator, nominal voltage is the maximum 60kv.
I use 40kV pressure bar test.
I'm considering pressure bar stability and stability and measurement meter accuracy, I didn't put the voltage to the maximum, if the voltage is again big it will more than 40kv.
I would like to consult, this type of transformer is suitable for nuclear fusion is the ideal equipment.
In addition, I also confirmed the original equipment is really poor sealing performance, I will this transformer installed in ion device originally, its voltage is very low, because the current reaches a maximum of 15mA
The original data of transformer should be current of about 5ma.
But I also found a problem, is the electrostatic dedusting transformer actual ionization effect, or the 20kV 25mA before ionization color depth is not as good as I use the equipment has obvious effect, although the latter voltage is not high.

I hope you can give me the transformer provides valuable advice.

Thanks a million.
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Yan Rui
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Re: Is this the plasma?

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My plan is to do step by step sureness.
The transformer is the product, and then to re create the sealing equipment.
I hope to be able to get the forum friends help.
Thank you all again.

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Please change your "Handle"

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

Yan, nice to see somebody from Beijing in our midst.

And congratulations on getting a Fusor up and running.

Please change the User ID portion of your profile to your real name, not 77na77na.

We use real names around here. No exceptions.

Thanks,

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Author of The Boy Who Invented Television: 2023 Edition – https://amz.run/6ag1
"Fusion is not 20 years in the future; it is 60 years in the past and we missed it."
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Re: Is this the plasma?

Post by Chris Bradley »

I know it is rude to keep repeating, but, Rui, until you can apply the full voltage of your existing power supply across your chamber without causing a plasma to form, then your chamber is no where near low enough in base pressure, and nothing you can do to your power supply will change that.

To operate, you should apply the desired start-up voltage first when the chamber is at a low pressure and too low to form a plasma, then slowly increase the pressure until the plasma forms.
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Re: Please change your "Handle"

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Paul_Schatzkin wrote:Yan, nice to see somebody from Beijing in our midst.

And congratulations on getting a Fusor up and running.

Please change the User ID portion of your profile to your real name, not 77na77na.

We use real names around here. No exceptions.

Thanks,

--PS


Thank you for your congratulations!
I will continue to complete the planning effort.
I tried to change my ID, I've always wanted to take my ID to Yan Rui
May be I am not familiar with the operation panel, I have not found the modified method, the following is my operation.
Would you help me modify what name? Or could you teach me how to correct ID
Thank you very much.

Yan Rui
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Re: Is this the plasma?

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Chris Bradley wrote:I know it is rude to keep repeating, but, Rui, until you can apply the full voltage of your existing power supply across your chamber without causing a plasma to form, then your chamber is no where near low enough in base pressure, and nothing you can do to your power supply will change that.

To operate, you should apply the desired start-up voltage first when the chamber is at a low pressure and too low to form a plasma, then slowly increase the pressure until the plasma forms.

Thank you for many times to help me!
I think my English is too poor, so there is no clear my thoughts or I didn't understand your meaning.

I'm terribly sorry.

I consulted in vacuum technology professionals, they also point out that the vacuum chamber of my poor sealing effect, especially the vacuum valve sealing effect is not good.
In addition, they also point out, if you want to get a better vacuum, the best use of steel containers and argon arc welding and sealing flange.
Through these knowledge, I decided in their guidance, to re create the container used to achieve reasonable sealing effect.
But before I am ready to these parts, I realized, my only 20kV Voltage transformer, it is difficult to complete the nuclear fusion reaction.
So once again I find a transformer, I very want to determine whether the transformer for fusor.
If the transformer is right, I was able to ensure that a link is no problem.
In this way, I can concentrate on the think of a way to solve the container sealing and vacuum problems.

I do not know if the clear.

Thank you again for many times to help, thank you!!

Yan Rui
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Re: Is this the plasma?

Post by Dan Tibbets »

I concur that you need a much better vacuum gauge so that you know accurately your pressure. Judging from the glow discharge, I roughly estimate your pressure being somewhere in the 500-3000 Micron range (~60 to 400 Pascals). If higher the plasma would "adhere" more to the wires. If lower you would start to see a bugle and/ or the visible plasma would condense further within the grid.

At these pressures I suspect your diffusion pump is worthless. It works only at low pressures. 500 Microns at most and probably below 200 Microns. At higher pressures it simply does not help. Also, the diffusion pump oil may be damaged when heated at these higher pressures. ~100-200 Microns is about the maximum pressure that the diffusion pump should be exposed to

One thing you can do is too pump down as best you can, establish a glow discharge, then valve off your vacuum pumps. If the plasma evolves quickly (seconds to a few dozen seconds) into wire adherent glow and then more arc like discharges, that is an indication that there are significant leaks and/ or out gassing from greases, etc. In that case your limiting obtainable vacuum is due to leakage, and better pumping will gain very little.

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Re: Is this the plasma?

Post by Yan Rui »

Dan Tibbets wrote:I concur that you need a much better vacuum gauge so that you know accurately your pressure. Judging from the glow discharge, I roughly estimate your pressure being somewhere in the 500-3000 Micron range (~60 to 400 Pascals). If higher the plasma would "adhere" more to the wires. If lower you would start to see a bugle and/ or the visible plasma would condense further within the grid.

At these pressures I suspect your diffusion pump is worthless. It works only at low pressures. 500 Microns at most and probably below 200 Microns. At higher pressures it simply does not help. Also, the diffusion pump oil may be damaged when heated at these higher pressures. ~100-200 Microns is about the maximum pressure that the diffusion pump should be exposed to

One thing you can do is too pump down as best you can, establish a glow discharge, then valve off your vacuum pumps. If the plasma evolves quickly (seconds to a few dozen seconds) into wire adherent glow and then more arc like discharges, that is an indication that there are significant leaks and/ or out gassing from greases, etc. In that case your limiting obtainable vacuum is due to leakage, and better pumping will gain very little.

Dan Tibbets

I was validated according to your tutorial.
When I close the valve, discharge gradually by the ionization state into a linear discharge.
I believe, this is due to leakage caused by the.
As I described earlier, I need to improve design, change the valve and the vacuum chamber, solve the leaking problem.
Thank you for your help.

Yan Rui
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