Stages of Development

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Jason C Wells
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Stages of Development

Post by Jason C Wells »

It seems to me that I have come to a critical juncture. I have cobbled and tinkered on my machine for a while. Now any time that I consider making in incremental improvement, I think to myself, I should scrap the whole mess and build a new machine with better detection, better instrumentation, safer controls, some data acquisition, and better quality equipment all around.

Did you come to a point where you scrapped everything? Did you cobble and tinker your way all the way through to your first reaction?

I have so much useless junk in my garage from naive iterations.

Regards,
Jason C. Wells
Last edited by Jason C Wells on Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Steven Sesselmann
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Re: Stages of Development

Post by Steven Sesselmann »

Jason,

The failures are the key to success. Each time an experiment fails we somehow miraculously see why it failed, and each time we get a little closer.

This is why I love small budget fusion, we can build several iterations before the big guys even finish their funding applications for the first one.

Steven
http://www.gammaspectacular.com - Gamma Spectrometry Systems
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Steven_Sesselmann - Various papers and patents on RG
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Richard Hull
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Re: Stages of Development

Post by Richard Hull »

I moved straight forward to fusion with no real back peddling. I bought more than I needed, but did 100% of the construction for all machines. My story is on the old songs site from its inception. I had my first demo demo device constructed within one month of Tom Ligon's first demo at the TCBOR gatherng in 1997.

The second advanced and much more successful demo device was studied for 18 months with no idea of doing fusion in it. I helped Dr. Bussard and Tom Ligon, his lab rat, by taking my fusor II up to them for testing doppler broadening. I read extensively three major texts on ionized gases and plasmas. I was in no hurry as I was "it" in the amateur Farnsworth fusion world prior to songs.com in December 1998.

My effort in real fusion succeeded with fusor III a year into songs.com's existence. I think the first amateur demo fusor on songs was made in late 1999 with the fellow never doing fusion.

From all my efforts, I highly recommend just doing real fusion first before thinking you can do something totally new, striking out on the more dificult path. As amateurs, special efforts along new lines, having never done easy fusion is a waste of time, effort and money. Doing easy fusion forces a lot of issues that must be addressed if not mastered. Nuclear instrumentation is one of the most important. You must be able to prove you have done or are doing fusion, whether it is you first pass with D-D fusion, the easy one, or in some special new modality of your own design.

Detecting and proving the alphas from P-B11 fusion will be a real major effort. As tough as neutron detection is, Alpha detection within a successful P-B11 reactor will be a tough nut to crack with the watchful and critical eyes of an already accomplished community of on lookers.

Make it simple by starting small along a well traveled path, read a lot, just do simple fusion and prove it and your creds will be established to a degree. Even that is no Carte Blache in future efforts in more difficult efforts as you will be subject to peer review at each stage. Get good first and get better next.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Steven Sesselmann
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Re: Stages of Development

Post by Steven Sesselmann »

Richard Hull wrote: Detecting and proving the alphas from P-B11 fusion will be a real major effort. As tough as neutron detection is, Alpha detection within a successful P-B11 reactor will be a tough nut to crack with the watchful and critical eyes of an already accomplished community of on lookers.

Richard Hull
For detecting the p+B11 reaction which outputs three energetic alpha particles, I would suggest surrounding the target area with Be and looking for secondary neutrons during the experiment. It would be necessary to keep the Be surround away from the proton beam to prevent false counts due to hits by protons. An approach like this might be simpler than trying to fit a pips detector inside the chamber.

The p+B11 reaction will be a challenge, but I am confident it will be done at an amatur level soon.

Steven
http://www.gammaspectacular.com - Gamma Spectrometry Systems
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Steven_Sesselmann - Various papers and patents on RG
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Stages of Development

Post by Dennis P Brown »

I agree with all Richards has to say above and especially with past posts pointing out the fact any fusion (or accelerator) project is tough and requires first and foremost -achieving D2 fusion first - also, having a VdG that produces enough current is, I feel, the issue for any accelerator project (for an electro-static machine, of course) and I do believe Richard's on the money point that a 6" wide belt is what someone should aim for - as such, I feel that many of the "high voltage machines" solid commercially that make a big deal out of their of claim high voltage is a red hearing and note they say zero about current capabilities (they all have very narrow belts!) I do wonder if you have that issue in hand. Until you do, no accelerator will produce enough current to be confident of good fusion. So a tear down will not solve this problem.

That said, detecting neutrons is another whole project in of itself. Have you that equipment or an idea on how to perform this test?

Moving up to alpha detection is a step that is far more difficult as Richard points out; especially if the first two steps are not completed.

Rather than scrap "everything", maybe just spend time on improving your primary systems - that has been my focus; as for Boron fusion - if one where to achieve deuterium on deuterium fusion using a working accelerator - then installing a boron target on a working system pretty much guarantee's you are getting alpha's - then testing detector systems to prove this makes sense and can be pursued with more confidence. As you may now realize it is the "unknowns" of whether you have results (the accelerator is really working or the VdG is working, or the proton gun is working, or...) that will kill any project when one needs to prove a detection system on top of those problems.

Don't give up but accept that any project takes not just "put these components together, measure, success" but long hours of fixing/addressing issues that are, frankly, seemingly trivial (in appearance) that everyone appears to handle but in fact, takes experience (often, a lot), hard work, and a long periods of effort directed at each and every "support system".
Last edited by Dennis P Brown on Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jason C Wells
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Re: Stages of Development

Post by Jason C Wells »

Thanks guys. I got what I came for. I was looking for a bit of perspective on how to proceed. I feel that I have reached the "unknowns of whether you have results." I especially like Dennis' comments on "seemingly trivial" and "long periods of effort." Knowing that my experience is echoed by people who have gone before me is encouraging.

Regards,
Jason C. Wells
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Richard Hull
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Re: Stages of Development

Post by Richard Hull »

Commercial VDG advertising is all about potential and not current as most machines under $1000 no matter how large or impressive are in effect toys for playing with and demostarting electrostatic principles by simple experiment at the classroom level only. This is much the same with the ignition coil and flyback transformer power supplies advertised at 60kv or more on line. All voltage, but no real useful current. No lies are told, of course. They all give you the voltage, (Potential difference) under no load conditions, but any attempt to use that voltage to do any real work or supply energy, at those voltages, causes them all to buckle to their knees and fall on their collective faces.

A good, air operated VDG that might be satisfactory would be a custom built 6" wide, sprayed belt system, (12" diameter column), with a 4 foot sphere or oblate needed to act as a reserve capacity terminal. In short, amateur VDG efforts are limited by the size of the room needed to house the VDG and not allow charge to leak off it due to room clutter. A good smallish, 250kv VDG for nuclear work would typically be tanked in vacuo or SF^ pressurized and run about 100,000 dollars or more. Under 250kv, transformer based, high frequency/multiplier systems are the real way to go.

Real useful ion pushing power at the "nuclear useful" amateur level requires a man sized effort involving a rolling up of the sleves and moving into lethal territory. One must either cobble up a beefy supply from scratch with electrical/electronics skill sets or purchase a custom built professional system.($$$$$). The only wiggle room in all of this comes in finding a suitable x-ray disgard or e-bay buy that can be modified or totally reworked into doing the job needed.

Only a rare lucky donkey will stumble into an easy to acquire, inexpensive, energetic HV power source capable of doing nuclear fusion.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Jason C Wells
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Re: Stages of Development

Post by Jason C Wells »

Well... maybe it's time to put my big boy undies on and do some real high voltage. One amongst us is on rev two of their CW ladder. I'll have to search it out.

Before I do real high voltage I'll have to do something I haven't done yet. I'll have to design for safety and then stick to the design and the operational procedures. Heretofore I picked out equipment that had a very low likelihood of causing permanent harm. I read Mr. Hull's high voltage FAQ last night. That article (the loaded gun analogy) was perfect in my estimation.

Regards,
Jason C. Wells
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Richard Hull
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Re: Stages of Development

Post by Richard Hull »

For first fusion and decent activation experiments, there is little need for more than about 45kv at 10-20ma. It must always be kept in mind, regardless of future uses,....The higher the voltage over about 50kv, x-ray dangers go up to lethal levels and many heroics in costs related to needed shielding will be demanded. The idea of a 100kv fusor at 20 ma sends shivers up my spine.

Consider carefully the x-ray dangers, shielding required in addition to the demanded insulation and electrical leakage in air heroics needed to tackle supplies designed to work in excess of 50-60 kv.

Unfortunately, looking at the P-B11 crossection voltages, accelerating voltages in the range of 80kv are needed to just equal the D-D fusion level, though, if lower fusion levels are accepted, this form of fusion will work at slightly lower voltages.

The very last thing we need in amateur fusion is a martyr to stupidity through ignorance of the hazards.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Stages of Development

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

I'm starting to worry about our liability here...
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