Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

For posts specifically relating to fusor design, construction, and operation.
John Futter
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by John Futter »

Enzo the clue is in your x-ray graph of voltage vs dose
it is your view port ie silicon and or some aluminium somewhere ie ceramic insulator for your high voltage all very good leak sites at about 20-30kV, Stainless holds back until 50kV or more
do not assume that the x-rays follow striaght lines they bounce off higher density stuff like stainless steel and lead multiple times so could come from below, behind, or above.
See one of my earlier threads on a 100kV system in this case direct x-rays were attenuated by the lead concrete filled cinder blocks but our 75kV feedthrough and accelleration tube insulators were letting huge numbers of x-rays go straight up that then bounced off the steel roof straight back down. so 300 micro-sieverts looking at our experiment behind the wall, pointing the counter straight up, 470 milli-sieverts coming straight back down
from the roof
ie suntan time
Bruce Meagher
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Bruce Meagher »

It’s great you’re continuing to gather data. From the video it would appear you are producing lots of neutrons, but running the test mentioned previously should help your case. My inverse square law comment was about the impact of moving the detector farther from the core, but as you noted it also applies to safety. Since the distance was approximately the same in the two cases my comment does not apply.

One thing others might not have noticed is that you are reporting neutrons in CPS instead of CPM. You’re running ~1000 CPM with the moderator at ~21kV, a few mAs, and ~20mTorr (absolute). Compare that to Joe’s recent runs where he’s getting ~4300 CPM at 43kV, 11mA, 27mTorr (pirani?). Obviously the detector sensitivity and location are different, and you are also using an ion source so the two are not directly comparable. However, calculating the approximate isotropic emission rate from the tube's sensitivity data and distance to the grid (or wall/target for BoT) should be an instructive comparison. Andrew has reported 2.4e6 n/s at ~40kV, 17.7mA, and 9.2 mTorr (pirani?) on his quad ion source fusor. What are you getting?

Finally, I noticed some flashing while looking through the viewport in your video. Are you getting some kind of arc events, or is this just a video artifact?

Good luck and keep up the great work!

Bruce
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Enzo Carter
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Enzo Carter »

Bruce Meagher wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:39 am Andrew has reported 2.4e6 n/s at ~40kV, 17.7mA, and 9.2 mTorr (pirani?) on his quad ion source fusor. What are you getting?
We will use the gammaspectaculat calculator when we have proven neutrons, until then the data point wont mean so much
Bruce Meagher wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:39 am Finally, I noticed some flashing while looking through the viewport in your video. Are you getting some kind of arc events, or is this just a video artifact?
Yes we sometimes get arching when we frst start up, think its oil from fingers or something burning off the cathode maybe because it seems to go away in minutes of plasma. there are also some video artifacts from noise its clear. sometimes we lose all video.

Its late and I have school tomorrow. but we made a stand for the gs-neutron so the moderator could be removed and replaced without moving the tube. the data looks good. will compile and post a video tomorrow. the bad news is we had to move the gs-neutron detector a bit further away to get this setup so less neutrons and we had to switch to one of my simple coiled tunsten electrode to get a long enough run without a cathode failure. The coin-tungsten rod cathode has much more neutrons but for these long runs it was just too unreliable.
and we also shielded the gs-neutron with a sheet of lead to make sure we brought the noise down.
IMG_7563sm.jpg
we also got a second neutron detector up and running. its a pretty big H3 tube on a ludlum. we had been trying to use it before but it had not been reliable. relianble o r not its a nice backup data point control group.

Everybody has been so helpful!!! thank you.
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Enzo Carter
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Enzo Carter »

So we have evidence of fusion! We ran the numbers and it shows we are not getting noise. Here is the chart.

We also added a control group neutron counter that is always moderated.
Screen Shot 2019-01-24 at 7.36.45 PM.png
This cathode is in 3D but the chamber is in 2D. The old cathode was a 2D in a 2D chamber. We think this reduces our neutron output but is really something to explore in the future.

Neutron Run
1/23/19

Tungsten Sphere 3x Loops 0.51mm 99.95% pure
28.4kV @ 1.5mA
45 mT (Pirani)
Spellman DXM -70K Supply
2x Neutron Detectors
1. GS-Neutron Tube fixed in place and shielded with lead with removable moderator
2. Ludlum 2000 + H3 @ 1360V Bias Control group counter (always moderated)
Neutrons Counted Neutrons / Minute
GS-Neutron GS Moderated Ludlum-H3 H3 Moderated Delta Time (s) GS-Neutron Ludlum-H3 (-) kV mA Pressure (mT)
Moderated Run 11 Yes 8 Yes 60 11.00 8.00 28.4kV 1.5 45
Un-Moderated Run 4 No 16 Yes 120 2.00 8.00 28.4kV 1.5 45
Moderated Run 38 Yes 24 Yes 195 11.69 7.38 28.4kV 1.5 45
Background Neutron Count 3 Yes 16 Yes 1620 0.11 0.59 0kV 0 0

Average Moderated Neutrons / Min
11.35 N/Min

Average Un-Moderated Neutrons / Min
2.00 N/Min

Background Neutrons
GS-Neutron 0.1 N/min
Ludlum H3 0.46 N/min
IMG_2750sm.jpg
Reactor Front
FrontIMG_1437.jpg
Neutron Detector (moderator installed)
ModeratorIMG_2690.jpg
Neutron detector no-moderator
WithoutModeratorIMG_6737.jpg
Proud Fusinator
EnzoIMG_4673.jpg
Last edited by Enzo Carter on Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:47 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Dennis P Brown »

I see you are working hard. So, don't let safety slip by rushing.

As for the final data you have posted, I'm a bit confused. Your moderated reading is 4.0 neutrons/sec and your non-moderated is 11.3 neutrons/sec. Yet when the detector has no moderator, and since it can't record fast neutrons, its signal should drop to near your noise floor. Instead, it is reading a signal three times higher than with the moderator. That does not follow my experience with my system. However, I'm certainly no expert on this issue so others should add their thoughts.
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Joe Gayo
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Joe Gayo »

Enzo,

I applaud your perseverance but honestly, I find the most recent data confusing. You have units of n/min and n/sec used interchangeably. Is all the data actually neutrons per minute?

Consistency and accuracy matter.

Joe
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Enzo Carter
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Enzo Carter »

Dennis P Brown wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:18 pm As for the final data you have posted, I'm a bit confused. Your moderated reading is 4.0 neutrons/sec and your non-moderated is 11.3 neutrons/sec. Yet when the detector has no moderator, and since it can't record fast neutrons, its signal should drop to near your noise floor. Instead, it is reading a signal three times higher than with the moderator. That does not follow my experience with my system. However, I'm certainly no expert on this issue so others should add their thoughts.
Yes in a rush I switched both in the summary :(

Thank you for spotting the issue
Joe Gayo wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:27 pm I applaud your perseverance but honestly, I find the most recent data confusing. You have units of n/min and n/sec used interchangeably. Is all the data actually neutrons per minute?

Consistency and accuracy matter.
I fixed it. thanks. all in N/min.

funny i was in a hurry to get to dinner, but no excuse
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Suspected that was the issue. You should re-post the corrected results for comments.

Glad you are making good progress. But again, be careful since fusors do not allow for second chances with their voltage and radiation.
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Enzo Carter
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Enzo Carter »

Dennis P Brown wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:38 am Suspected that was the issue. You should re-post the corrected results for comments.
I corrected the original post. Thank you again for catching the mistake so quick.
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Enzo Carter
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Enzo Carter »

I wanted to put together q 3 minute video describing my Neutron generating run setup as reading a spreadheet is not the easiest way to see what was going on.

Video of the setup
https://youtu.be/t7sQQlOZzOY


Video of the actual runs the data came from.
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GtHVMwKbio&feature=youtu.be

A nice snapshot of the star mode using the round tungsten wire cathode. Not as good as the nickel-tungsten one but more reliable.
Star_Mode_IMG_1666.jpg
there is nothing quite as petty as deuterium plasma
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Enzo Carter
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Enzo Carter »

i did a silver activation earlier this week and made a video. Its decent activation. I am going to do a neutron run this morning, will see if I can get another silver activation while I am doing the moderator vs no moderator.

Here is the video:
https://youtu.be/BBoL2lVVH8Y

Here is the data:
Silver Activation 50 CPM at 100 seconds out of oven
Background 31 CPM

Setup:
25micron Deuterium
Spellman HV -21kV at 1.5mA
3.3V drive which is 1400 V @ 1.5-3mA ION gun was active
Nickel-Tungsten cathode
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Joe Gayo
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Joe Gayo »

Ideally you would use an integration mode for counting as opposed to rate (cpm).

- With the fusor off, record the total number of counts for 5 minutes
- Run fusor at least 3 times half life to activate the silver
- Turn fusor off and record total number of counts for 1 minute then compare to average cpm of background
- (Bonus: record counts in increments of half life ~25 seconds and look at decay)

In addition a moderating block on all sides of the foil is better.
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Enzo Carter
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Enzo Carter »

Joe Gayo wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:55 pm Ideally you would use an integration mode for counting as opposed to rate (cpm).

- With the fusor off, record the total number of counts for 5 minutes
- Run fusor at least 3 times half life to activate the silver
- Turn fusor off and record total number of counts for 1 minute then compare to average cpm of background
- (Bonus: record counts in increments of half life ~25 seconds and look at decay)

In addition a moderating block on all sides of the foil is better.
I think with my Neutron rate ,7-10k N/s, that silver activation is harder. I do use a HDPE block on both sides, I will include this in the next video so it is clear. Thanks for the integration suggestion. Not sure i fully understand but will research it a bit and find out!

I would rather rely on my two neutron detectors now that they are 95% sorted out. they give real time readings which is the biggest value over activation IMO. also with two I can have a control group.

Thanks for your comments.
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Enzo Carter
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Enzo Carter »

So here is very strong evidense i am fusing deuterium.
IMG_2779sm.jpg
Moderated run: 6.86 Neutrons per minute
Non moderated run: 0.21 Neutrons per minute

During 10 minutes of unmoderted run produced a count on my GS-Neutron of 0.21 neutrons per min which is only twice background. In moderated runs the GS-Neutron detected 6.8 neutrons per minute. The gs-neutron tube is fixed in place and so we just slide the moderator on and off not moving the tube as recommended.

background: 0.1 neutron per min

I also have a control group which is a H3 tube connected to a ludlum 2000 counter. I keep it moderated all of the time. This has many advantages as I can see my neutron count even when the primary gs-neutron is unmoderated. The counts during fusion on the H3 moderated is 6 neutrons per min.
WhiteboardIMG_5221sm.jpg
I also did another silver activation. I know that with my current count rate I am likely only putting out under 10000 neutron per second per the gammaspectacular calculator and thats not going to activate silver very good. But I tried it anyway.

Silver Activation
0sec run to geiger counter on other side of house
10sec put under geiger counter which is currently displaying 32 CPM
56sec the reading is 52 CPM
100sec the reading is 38 CPM
checked 10 minutes later the reading is back to around 32 CPM

here is all of the data. i checked and rechecked for errors.
Screen Shot 2019-01-26 at 4.32.27 PM.png
We really try to capture all of this in the video so we can play / pause to get the data as it would take 5 people to right it all down inreal time and I dont have data collection software written.

YouTube video: https://youtu.be/52Rz7Pas2vo

I am pretty confident I am releasing neutrons from D-D fusion based on the test results. I look forward to being in the neutron club!
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Again, a bit confused. Previously, you were getting nearly 11 neutrons a second (around 660 neutrons/min) from your fusor as you reported; now you indicate you are getting about 7 neutrons per minute (a rather low rate for a reliable data run.) I should assume the early runs were incorrect? If so, what was wrong in those runs or was it just an issue of data reporting then (or now)?

I haven't previously see anyone report activate of Ag with such a low neutron production (10,000/min) - Richard is far more knowledgeable (as are others) and should weigh in on this issue.

Also, you didn't report the time at all for the GM null test that got your zero counts for that run.

Another issue is that you report that your counter is getting 32 counts/min from the Ag ten minutes after activation - Ag isn't very active after tens minutes, which indicates that your GM detector is reading a rather high value compared to the Ag activation data run.

Part of the reason I am concerned is because a Geiger counter can't read zero for properly run instruments over a proper time interval - cosmic rays will cause counts yet you are reporting zero counts away from your setup. Yet it is also reading 32 counts/min ten minutes after Ag activation (when the Ag should have essentially no reliable counts) indicating that is your GM's actual null value. If so, that appears rather high compared to your Ag activation data counts.

Again, I'm just asking and my questions are not meant to indicate that your data isn't correct nor that you are not getting neutrons; only that I need some clarification to better understand your experiment.

Regardless of my questions, you are making good efforts and learning by doing more runs. So keep at it and be safe.
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Enzo Carter
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Enzo Carter »

Dennis P Brown wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:46 am Again, a bit confused. Previously, you were getting nearly 11 neutrons a second (around 660 neutrons/min) from your fusor as you reported; now you indicate you are getting about 7 neutrons per minute (a rather low rate for a reliable data run.) I should assume the early runs were incorrect? If so, what was wrong in those runs or was it just an issue of data reporting then (or now)?
As reported I changed the cathode from a cylinder to a standard tungsten sphere. I also moved the neutron detector and shielded it with lead. Its apples and oranges. I had to change the cathode as the cylinder ones tungsten welding rods would eject for runs longer than a minute or so. Not positive why, maybe the nickel+copper end caps were expending letting the rods fall out. For short runs it worked very well but Richard had asked for longer runs so I made a traditional sphere. The traditional sphere is not as uniform, does not contain the plasma as well and seems less efficient in a NW50 T as it is only round on one axis. so I changed the reactor and counter fundamentally and had to wlk away from the previous data.

This new data on the new setup looks great to me as unmoderated I am counting almost no Neutrons, and moderated I am counting 7 per minute reliably before and after the no-moderator test. all the while my control Neutron detector is counting away normally through all runs as it always is moderated. The silver activation data is ok, not super, but with this level of neutrons seems right.
Dennis P Brown wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:46 am I haven't previously see anyone report activate of Ag with such a low neutron production (10,000/min) - Richard is far more knowledgeable (as are others) and should weigh in on this issue.

Also, you didn't report the time at all for the GM null test that got your zero counts for that run.

Another issue is that you report that your counter is getting 32 counts/min from the Ag ten minutes after activation - Ag isn't very active after tens minutes, which indicates that your GM detector is reading a rather high value compared to the Ag activation data run.

Part of the reason I am concerned is because a Geiger counter can't read zero for properly run instruments over a proper time interval - cosmic rays will cause counts yet you are reporting zero counts away from your setup. Yet it is also reading 32 counts/min ten minutes after Ag activation (when the Ag should have essentially no reliable counts) indicating that is your GM's actual null value. If so, that appears rather high compared to your Ag activation data counts.
I dont understand your comments on 32 counts for Ag. The 32 counts is my background. This is the same with and without unactivated silver on the pancake. my reporting of the Ag part must be confusing and I need to improve it.

I put the times in for every step of the silver activation attempt but you say there is no "time at all" for the zero count GM null test. It was at 10 minutes post data. Calling it zero is misleading as I was reporting the GM counter numbers including the background which is usually 32. Reporting the raw numbers I though would lead to less confusion.

last on this my GM never reports 0, if it did I would assume it was broken. Especially this GMC-600+ as its very sensitive. I dont see in my data where I said it was 0. but I think i am not communicating my data as good as I can. I will try and improve
Dennis P Brown wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:46 am ..you indicate you are getting about 7 neutrons per minute (a rather low rate for a reliable data run.)
Can you help me understand why 7 Neutrons per minute is not a reliable data for a run. The background from cosmic on that Neutron detector is 0.1 neutrons per minute. so 7 is well outside of the noise and a reasonable count for -29kV at 1mA with a spherical cathode.

I would like to thank you for taking time out of your day to ask goodquestions and help make my data better and more readable.
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Aside: it is best for the site if you do not copy large sections of what I say and repost as blocks. Just say in a sentence or so what I said and address the question/point.

Relative to what I said and the why, I'll try and explain a bit.

For instance, your entry that said "0sec run to geiger counter on other side of house" is what confused me; I, of course, realized that your 10 minute delay reading was the null test (as I said.) Yet you posted that 0sec entry and it was confusing. Still not clear what it means.

More on the issue about activation data. What I was addressing (and not clearly), was the question of whether the activation data is a significant reading compared to your null - while, of course, 52 is bigger than 32 but without a number of runs or some statistics, that isn't as convincing as just looking at the absolute values imply alone - for instance, if an instrument gives a count of 1 for a reading, then a count of 1.7, is that significant? If there are error bars someone can immediately say yes or no. While here, few ever use error bars, we do provide a number of runs to give a feel for how the data varies relative to our equipment. This is critical if the data is marginal compared to the null. A factor of ten may or may not be significant depending on many factors - noise, data values and their variance. While these are terms not generally used by most people, when conducting experiments it is a good idea to under stand these terms relative to your experiment. Variance is the "gold" standard issue for most data here. Does the data appear consistent? Or is it all over the map? How many runs and how did the data vary? Only displaying a series of runs can really demonstrate this issue has been addressed.

This does not mean a singular run isn't correct or proof of results; your null and previous work can show a pattern that demonstrates it does. That is why the site requires prior work displays (even without data) to show progress and that the person understands what they are posting.

The point I am making is that you have a single run for each Ag activation experiment - the null and the 'hot' run. Yet what is your BG on average? Outlying data does occur - for instance, say one gets the following readings for their BG: 33, 36, 38 31, 49, 36 and 35 for one minute runs (not 65 sec or 55 sec but exactly 60 sec. That too is critical.) Obviously, the 49 is an outlying value that can be thrown out; that is, once one has enough data to conclude that. How does one get that information? Well, I can only read what you are posting. So, I have to ask. You do the experiments and determine what your general BG is as well as what constitutes a signal. That is done by you making a number of runs. Yet your data consist of singular runs. Hence, my questions.

Again, not saying that your results are not valid nor should you conclude that by my questions. In a similar vein, your 7 counts/min for neutrons appears valid. I do not mean to leave you the impression that the results aren't acceptable just that those are not very large values considering the detector you are using. However, your high voltage supply provides very low power so your low neutron readings are consistent. You made two runs of neutron data collection that show a good bit of variance; certainly those runs demonstrates that data is being collected and your noise level is low. For instance, your "no moderator" run is tens times longer than one of your with moderator runs. That is a good idea and lends support to your detector's signal to noise level (assuming the power supply was running with a plasma light.)

That all said, only Richard decides the issue of acceptable data. My interest was in better understanding what you were presenting by asking specific questions about the data, not whether the data was sufficient nor valid. The later I have no doubt and as for the former, not my call but I was attempting to steer you in the direction of clarifying your results.
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Enzo Carter
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Enzo Carter »

Thank you for the clarification. And thank you for telling me I should not post blocks of Quoted text. did not know that. I am a fast learner and will try and do better.

I agree my Ag data was hard to read. I dont have enough Ag data to validate neutrons very well.

have been focusing on the neutron detectors and getting consistent and long runs with one setup. I think I have that as I have pretty consistent data from several days of fusor operation. it does about what I expect and my counters display about what I expect. Its now pretty reproducible.

I probably wont try Silver again until I get my Neutrons back up, maybe a target for February.

Anyone have a calculator or formula to the silver activation count for a 10k N/s reactor that I might expect? assuming the run is 3-4 half lifes? That might help. Its pretty clear in the video the counts shoot up when I put the silver under the pancake, but I think that I might need at least double background or something as proof to myself.

Thanks again. without comments like yours this would be more difficult to learn.
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Your neutron data is very clean - low noise and significant data events; you just need more runs and if possible, longer runs. I believe that would be your best course of action. Besides, more runs will result in a better behaving fusor as long as you don't open it to air (moisture - the bane of a fusor.)

You can continue doing Ag activation but that experiment isn't using as good a detector as your He-3 tube; a device that is ideal for directly detecting neutrons. Most people have the opposite issue - a poor (often noisy) neutron detector (or none) so Ag activation is their best (or less expensive) methodology.

I would suggest that you do more fusor data collection runs and present your data for consideration to the neutron club. You can pursue Ag activation later; certainly consider a power supply with more current for that project.

I'm glad you upped the voltage as I suggested - the results are better. Just don't get too close to your cable's voltage rating - I discovered that the hard way; a 35 kV cable with 32 kV wasn't exactly the best situation - I obtained a nice hole in a cermet floor and badly burned a section of the cable. Also learned that splicing HV cables isn't at all that easy and more often than not, just results in more holes in the floor - ;)
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Richard Hull »

I have placed Enzo in the neutron club. He has jumped through the hoops and I am confident he is doing fusion with his setup.

Richard Hull
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The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Enzo Carter
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Enzo Carter »

Thanks so much for letting me in the club, it means so much to me, I just want to say thanks and that I will be a contributor to the forum.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Richard Hull »

We look forward to future reports on improved operations.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Congratulations and great work! Hope you expand your efforts and continue posting here.
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Eduardo_Machado »

Hello Enzo,

Congratulations on your work!

Eduardo
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Re: Construction of Neutron Grade Fusor

Post by Bruce Meagher »

Congratulations Enzo! It’s great seeing you working closely with your dad to create and run some cool science experiments.

I believe you are the first person to use the GS Neutron detector to claim fusion. It seemed like you went through some issues, and it would be a good separate post to describe your trials and tribulations. Was lead shielding really necessary? The counting went down by two orders of magnitude when you moved and shielded the detector, but from the pictures it wasn't apparent the distance was all that different. I know you changed the grid, but I’m skeptical this would make orders of magnitude difference. Countless others have had issues with noise on their detectors. Was this a factor with yours? For others who might try to use this detector it would be great to share your experience.

I hope you continue to run experiments with your fusor and post your findings.

Bruce
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