Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

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Carl Willis
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Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Carl Willis » Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:10 am

Hi folks,

I was recently at a student meeting in Madison where I had the privilege of observing the large fusor built by a research group at the University of Wisconsin.

Ben Cipiti, a student on this project, told me about experiments showing that most, or perhaps almost all, of the reactions produced in their fusor using D-3He were found to occur in the metal of the cathode due to the embedding and buildup of D and He. One of Cipiti's papers is available free at:

http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/FTI/pdf/fdm1202.pdf

Anyway, I've always been interested in whether a D-D fusor will produce neutrons if it is run "backwards" with the center grid being the anode. If so, this would lend credibility to the theory that most reactions occur in the cathode metal, and perhaps lead us to redirect our efforts toward simpler cathode structures and / or lead us to experiment with different cathode materials in search of higher neutron yield.

So if you have a D-D fusor that makes neutrons and you want to satisfy my curiosity...I think this would be a very informative experiment. Currently my second fusor is under construction and will be for some time yet, hence I'm on the sidelines for a while. Any takers??

-Carl
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Richard Hull
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Richard Hull » Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:01 pm

This is quite interesting Carl and needs to be addressed. Hydrogen and D2 and T2 are trapped in a lot of metal lattices. Bombardment and electrolysis have been used.

The CF work tends to use electrolysis. The fusor is obviously a bombardment method. I would have thought that the heating of the grid and the violence of the ion bombardment would act to desorb or re-emit the D2 atoms. Add to this the fact that if the D2 is embedded and merely bombarded, we have lost a hell of a lot of collisional energy and are in a simple target/accelerator situation and suffer a vastly smaller collisional cross section. This might be made up for with very high deuterium densities in the lattice after a suitable period of bombardment.

Lots o' questions, lots o' clues and thoughts, but little data.

Here is where a bit of CF reading would come in handy. The CF people have found the following materials to be excellent CF electrodes and report CF action in the following metals in various cells with successes in the following order. Pd, Ti, Ni. Other metals that are known to readily absorb hydrogen are Ta and W. Making grids from these materials might prove interesting. All have fairly high melting points, melting in the following order, low to high, Ni, Pd, Ti, Ta, W. The #1 protium absorber known to man is Palladium (Pd). Of these metals, the density is, in decreasing order, W, Ta, Pd, Ni, Ti

Again, The bombardment would seem to be just too violent for surface deposition of D2 which is what CF claims are finding (only the first few microns are active sites). Accelerator based bombardment might drive the D2 deeper into the grid metal lattices. In this case, the poor incoming deuterons would have to loose energy to reach the material, especially in the dense Ta grids.

Reports from the original farnsworth team all told me that they always got a short puff or rise in pressure immediately after shutdown. They asked me if I noticed this and I affirm this small but interesting anomoly. Perhaps the bombardment so heavily loads the lattice and creates an effective film of dense D2 there, and upon shutdown when the bombardment ceases, it instantly outgasses to some stable lattice condition of absorbed D2.

Finally, What about CF action here? Is our production close to the Cross sectional estimates or in excess. I always felt in excess. We just do it too easy at only 30kev. Most nice target generators use over 100kev and tritium!

If reversal is tried, then the shell would be the absorber metal and the wire grid an anode. With all the electrons headed here you might run the risk of a melt down. Perhaps a solid or more intricate anode grid in the reversed case will be demanded.....provided, of course, that efficient fusion is possible in reverse polarity mode.

Almost too much to think about.

Richard Hull
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Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by dlsworks » Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:00 pm

Mr. Willis,

I postd this in another thread a few weeks back, ..don't know if you seen it....
http://www.nucl.phys.tohoku.ac.jp/fusio ... kasagi.pdf
....a specific info tidbit.

BTW I dis plan to make this part of my foci in future fusor setups. One of many experiments that had crossed my mind was that of similiarly using a sphere (not solid) as in the Wis. Uni. setup but completely perforated say with >400nm holes.

darius

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Richard Hull
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Richard Hull » Wed Apr 07, 2004 4:25 pm

I did see the original posting of this paper. It is effectively a CF/CANR/LENR paper. These papers, once effectively banned, are now getting published. I am pleased with this trend.

The fusor appears to be doing hot fusion as the reactants are the well understood reactants. CF tends report a spread of emitted particles, or not, and a lot of transmutation products which seem out of step with normal physics predictions. Whether this is scatter due to the near noise level CF system data gathering or some bizzarre nuclear chemistry proton exchange mechansim, only time will tell.

Certainly I am open to warm fusion in lattices and this might be what the fusor is if this "fusion in the grid" hypothesis pans out.

Regardless, at first blush, it seems to be common hot fusion aided by some form of natural target self assembly under bombardment. Solid central grids or heavier grids of special materials are worth following up on. I think part of the key here is, and will remain, the nearly perfect spherical symmetry with its natural self focusing action, electrostatic acceleration and a central grid/target.

Wouldn't it be funny and ironic if the fusor discussion actually straddled hot and cold fusion or leads to a break through in linking the vast gulf afixed between the intractable and well established hot fusion community and the baby that nearly went out with the wash-water of cold fusion/ lattice fusion and its shunned community of adherants.

Richard Hull
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Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
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Adam Szendrey
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Adam Szendrey » Wed Apr 07, 2004 4:53 pm

Richard,

I just had this crazy idea...What if the "runaway" effect is actually a fusion "blast" inside the cathode material? I'm not sure if that is possible, or how. I just thought i share this idea that popped into my mind :).

Adam

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Richard Hull
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Richard Hull » Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:06 pm

GREAT THOUGHT! The most intriguing and best working CF cells on record have also RUN AWAY nearly melting or boiling off large amounts of the cell electrolytes. All of the best CF cells that didn't do this good, but worked, at least showed a sustained BURST of activity producing energy and then a die down.

WOW! This stuff might be at the cusp of fusion in the solid state. But like all good science you have to be able to duplicate on demand. With no real theory in hand, no reproducability on an engineering basis, a melt down of an entire CF or fusor setup and the deaths of all of the experimenters to radiation exposure would still only be considered annecdotal evidence of fusion. Annecdotal, only because you couldn't make the same setup and kill another batch of experimenters.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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Adam Szendrey
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Adam Szendrey » Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:31 pm

Wow! I didn't know that CF cells can produce such a runaway event. We might be discovering something really great here.
The question here is, WHY is there a runaway? And WHAT are the parameters that lead to a runaway? Does it happen after running the fusor for a long time? How is it related to the voltage/current/pressure? To me it seems that all of this can only be answered via experimentation.
It would be great to know more about the runaway event back at ITT.
The problem is that such an event is very rare.We might be able to increase the possibility.
IF it is due to a fusion "blast" in the cathode material, then using a solid Palladium cathode might result in some interesting data....Ofcourse if the "danger" of a runaway is at an elevated possibility then one would use loads of lead shielding, and a pit, to prevent a disaster. Palladium is expensive, so tungsten might be another option.
Just in case the runaway effect prooves to be sort-of a CF event, and the result is an immense blast of energy, the how can it be contained? How can one control a runaway? It sounds like controlling an avalanche. The cathode desintegrates and the reactions end instantly.

Adam

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Richard Hull
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Richard Hull » Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:35 pm

Runaways in CF cells are rather common in successful experiments, but not usually a threat. They can range from a 10 minute boiling water event, (rare and nasty) to a 3 day heating event of 120% over unity output. (more common slow heating of system). What little neutron instrumentation is at hand during these events shows little or no neutron output! This is why CF is so weird and why so many scientists have felt it is chemical in nature. Unfortunately, there is that nasty nuclear transformation of many metals across the board in post runaway cell electrode material which is always analyized post mortem.

It would do all well to bone up on the more recent and interesting CF events. (See the new forum for the URLs that will lead you there.) A runaway fusor is more likely to pose a serious threat and be far more energetic than a CF cell as the backup electrical energy is of a greater nature than a low voltage CF cell bench supply.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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Re: Proposed polarity - reversal experiment

Post by Roberto Ferrari » Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:56 pm

Probably a "blank" test can be runned in order to see if the runaway is due just to an excess of power, applying the same conditions of the fusor but with a non-fusing gas, may be N2 or Ar.
Roberto

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Re: Proposed polarity - reversal experiment

Post by Richard Hull » Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:30 pm

Roberto,

How is it possible that you respond to a post and have it show up as a new post with no responses?

When you need to respond to a post, hit the "reply" button at the bottom of the post.

DO NOT hit "post" and type in the old title. Post is for starting a completely unique and new thread ONLY.

In answer to your question.................. We cannot make a fusor runaway! There fore a null test is valueless. It does it as if by magic or when it damned well feels the urge to do it. Just like CF cells. We have no clue or even hint as to why it happens, what causes it, or what the proper conditions are to even set it on the path to runaway. ZERO hard data on how to get a fusor to run away.

The only two recorded runaways here are well documented and no excess power was used or drawn during either event. Jon Rosentiel's "event" was the most stunning and frightening.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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