Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

[Roberto Ferrari]

Thanks, Richard.
I was trying to understand what was gone wrong with my message!
By the way, what do you think of a "blank" test? Surely using other ion mass require a correction factor to be applied in order to evaluate the delivered power to the grid.
Roberto

[Richard Hull]

I just answered your question above. We must have posted at the same instant as I appended my original post.

Richard Hull

[r_c_edgar]

I've moved this posting so it's now a part of the correct thread.

--Ryan

[Roberto Ferrari]

Richard,
I searched into the fusor files not finding the Jon Rosentiel's runaway.
Would you be so kind to point me to a detailed report of it?
Roberto

[Richard Hull]

I found it easily. As it was Jon's post in this forum, I search under the AUTHOR and found "Anomolous event"

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2304#p11814

There are a lot of ways to search this place. The term run-away is not universally used.

The discussion on this was quite amazing and more details are given in the responses, as you can see. The event is real and almost never seen, but this stuff does happen and just freaks out all who have it happen. The same way a hook is deeply set in anyone witnessing a CF runaway event.

The most significant event occured to the old, original Farnsworth fusor team in the 60's. Their event flooded and blacked out every neutron film badge in the place!!! It really shook them up and upset the rad safety officer so much that he never reported the event. It has been confirmed to me personally by two eyewitnesses and one third party who was friends with a third eyewitness (now deceased)

Richard Hull

[Roberto Ferrari]

As you already stated, there are a lot of variables playing in the fusor.
Did the Farnsworth team published that event? Does exist records of all the monitored parameters during that neutron surge?
Double checks seem a must. I see you record simultaneously neutrons, gamma rays and activation isotopes. Nobody uses film record (you know, those neutron radiographies, I don't remember the intermediary material)? Would be a permanent record.

[Richard Hull]

As I said, it was a matter of possibly shutting down the entire project! .......With everyone losing their jobs. It was a one time event! It was not formally recorded within the corporation as an event!

Therefore, there is only the human record and the record of the badge development, reading and reporting company which no longer exists. The report that all personnel badges and all room and pit wall mounted badges were overexposed and therefore unreadable was sent back to the safety officer who "deep sixed" it! The project continued for another 3 years. It really shook them up as processed film badges don't lie. As most of the team members are in the late autumn of their lives >70 years old, they are just now willing to speak of it without fear of trouble.

There exists no formal written report. I have seen the fear and reticence on behalf of all involved and believe these highly trained people who were just trying to keep their jobs.

All of this is based on personal, sit-down, face-to-face interviews with the parties actually present at the event or privy to conversations of other who were.


Richard Hull

[Adam Szendrey]

To sum things a bit...If the fusor can actually initiate a CF runaway event, then a solid palladium cathode could be a good idea to try.
BUT.
Anyone who tries such an experiment, risks that a serious runaway might occur. A solid palladium cathode would surely increase the effect many folds. A 1 kW fusor running away with such a cathode might actually rupture the thick stainless shell, and blow white hot metal fragments all around.
The radiation involved would probably be extreme for a short time, killing anything organic nearby. A miniature neutron bomb...
I just wonder though...if CF cells do not emit elevated neutron rates, than why do these runaway events show theirselves as an increased neutron emission? We are looking at the unknown here...Aahh...the good old days . This is true science.

Adam

[Richard Hull]

Based on the frequency of runaways I think we need not worry at all. Besides, you can always kill power, dump the vacuum or otherwise kill the fusion reaction. A killing neutron release would be accompanied by a heating effect and instant loss of fuel. None of these have ever been seen or heard of. Everyone lived. However, it is obvious that the stable and normally observed fusion was most likely enhanced significantly during the event.

Richard Hull

[Adam Szendrey]

Such a runaway IS very rare, but maybe with a directed epxeriment , using a solid palladium or tungsten electrode (to my knowledge this has never been tried) MIGHT increase the probability, and MIGHT also increase the effect many folds. Taking pre-cautions never hurts, even if the probability is very low.

Adam

[Richard Hull]

True, but again, just be prepared to pull the plug. Jon Rosentiel did and so did the Farnsworth people. It is just that simple.

Keep good lab notes before you do the experiment that way if you die, or become a martyr to the cause we can come in, pick up the pieces and collect on all the good ideas.

If an event so deadly as you would prepare for actually happens, you could not afford the requisite shielding to protect yourself anyway. If you got a fission reactor flux, one that could actually be used to generate viable power, six feet of lead and concrete would barely be suitable. Barring this, working at an air range of 1 kilometer from the fusor would be sufficient.

I have a huge book that scientifically documents some exposed core reactor experiments in a forest in Georgia during the 50's and 60's. They pulled a working reactor core out to a remote railroad siding and cranked it up and let fly. Trees were denuded 2000 feet away and all fauna perished, save bugs, for a kilometer. Dirt berms 1000 feet away shielded small plants which were the sole flora in a scene of desolation. 100 feet from the reactor core, an ant hill prospered as worker ants went about there busy way in a 10,000 rad field. It is nice to know that in a total nuclear exchange and holocaust that all life on earth would not be wiped out. Those were the days.......

Richard Hull

[Jon Rosenstiel]

How about using vacuum deposition to apply a thin coating of Pd (or Ni, or Ti) to the cathode? Do-able in the amateur lab. Would certainly be a fraction of the cost of a solid palladium cathode.

Jon Rosenstiel

[Adam Szendrey]

Not a bad idea. Though you can buy tungsten rods in a welder shop. I'm not sure how pure those are, and if there is any coating on it's surface. If it's simply a tungsten rod then it can be used as an electrode (a small piece could be cut from the rod).
Surely palladium is better than tungsten for CF.
I'm not even sure where to get the palladium (for sputtering) from.

Adam

[Brian McDermott]

Kurt J. Lesker has it under evaporation sources. They sell it in 1/4" x 1/4" cylindrical pellets. Each pellet is about $25. Smaller 1/8" x 1/8" pellets are $10. It is 99.95% pure.

[Adam Szendrey]

Thanks Brian! Relatively reasonable price. A lot of test targets can be coated with that amount of palladium i guess.

Adam

[Brian McDermott]

You could also use one of the smaller pellets as a target directly. If you can get the focusing tight enough, a pin-head sized piece could work.

[Adam Szendrey]

You are absolutely right. That would jump a step (sputtering).But maybe a larger surface is better. I'm not sure.The best way is to try both. Experimenting with tungsten is also a good idea. I think i'll do these experiments once i have my fusor finished, and i have the required gear (the hardest part is neutron detection, i think i'll try to borrow a detector from somewhere). The rest is "on the way".

Adam

[Adam Szendrey]

Some thoughts running through my head...
There is a runaway effect of CF cells. There is a runaway effect of the fusor (though very rare, and MAY be linked to CF).
Can these runaways be sort of fusion chain reactions? A critical value of a factor (or several factors) is met and off she goes. In case of the fusor the reason of the rarity of runaways may be due to the very rare occurance of such circumstances.
CF cells seem to do something that initiates such an "anomaly".
But what? Maybe ion density?

Adam

[DavidHansen]

Wow, this is scary stuff. What a crude, uncontrolled experiment!

Which generation of Farnsworth's devices did this runaway occor on? Do you know which machine or any specifics of the machine's design?

David Hansen

[Adam Szendrey]

Well i would not call it crude. Or uncontrolled...only if a runaway does occur. To some level it can be controlled. Once you register it, you simply turn the fusor off. Unless you die before you can make a single step, which has never ever happened, as Richard has said, everybody lived to tell.
Though it seems there has been no directed experiments, to actually initiate a runaway on purpose. A palladium cathode (solid, or plated) may proove to be interesting.
Or (and this is what can be expected), nothing extra-ordinary happens...but i don't think i should expect something right away, which happens to one fusor from a hundred once in it's lifetime.
So even if the course is correct, one might not see any positive results, right away.
Doing experiments which are directed to initiate a runaway, are a little bit like storm (tornado) chasing in my mind. With less chanse for a "perfect storm", though much more dangerous.

Adam

[DavidHansen]

The crude experiment I was referring to was the train car reactor core. I think Farnsworth's devices are beautifully elegant, not crude. The solid palladium (or palladium-plated) target is a good idea. Or, perhaps a spherical palladium screen - recirculation of ions could still occur, so the bombardment would be effectivly greater than if it was a solid sphere.

I still wish to know which of Farnsworth's machines was involved in this spectacular runaway.

David Hansen

[Brian McDermott]

I think it was the Mark 2 prime, which is the one seen in all the "warp core" images.

[Richard Hull]

The mark II prime was Gene Meeks machine and was a T + D machine. It never ran away. The runaway machine was not identified to me though I have surmised that it was the mark II operated by three people present. George Bain, (engineering head), Fred Haak, (Systems Engineer) and Jim Fisher, (technician).

Richard Hull

[Adam Szendrey]

Richard,

Is it known what material did they use for the cathode in that runaway device? Was it tungsten?

Adam

[Richard Hull]

The grids used by the Farnsworth teams were all stainless steel.

Richard Hull