An energy producing Fusor

For posts specifically relating to fusor design, construction, and operation.
Post Reply
Hayabusa
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:28 am
Real name:

An energy producing Fusor

Post by Hayabusa »

Hello All,

Fasinating forum!

I have been reviewing the fusor pages for about a week now, and have yet to come across something that describes a means of extracting energy from the Fusor. Im not talking about a system which generates more energy then what the system consumes in operation or even a break even condition, I realize thats the goal, or at least the major one.

Im really new at this and probably just don't understand the language enough yet so I probably missed it.

Would someone please explain to me in simple laymen terms how the fusor could produce electrical energy.

I would like to propose an Idea here, because Im wondering if someone has already tried this. It's probably flawed in some way but here it goes.

The Center(inner) grid heats up during operation, therefore limiting the amount of time the Fusor can stay in operation.

Has anyone considered or tried constructing the inner grid from a coil of fine hollow stainless steel tubing, which is formed into a spherical shape? The hollow tube could then be filled with a liquid which would then serve to purposes, 1) it would cool the grid, and allow for continuos operation, and 2) provide a means of extracting energy, and generating electrical energy via turbine/boiler.

I love the work you guys have done, and can't believe something like this has been kept out of the public eye for so long Discovery Channel were are you?

Thanks in advance for any feed back

If this is a good idea and works, then perhaps liquid cooling/energy-collection could also be aplied to the shell.


Happy Fusing fellas ;^)
Q
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:45 pm
Real name:

Re: An energy producing Fusor

Post by Q »

hi roger,

well, this is a bit of a pointless rant on symantics, but since energy can not be created, a fusor can not produce energy. it can however liberate energy from the nuclear reactions that take place within it.

that said, as it is, the fusor can not be used to produce electricity. but you are correct in thinking that getting usable energy out of the fusor is one of the goals that some forum members have.

now the hollow grid idea has been discussed extansively, and it has merrit. yet it is not very practicle to do on an ameteur budget. the high voltages involved are the main problem; the coolant would have to be nonconductive. also, the work involved in taking a small dialeter tube and fabricating a fusor grid from it would be extremely difficult. then if that challenge were solved, there is the difficulty in having a liquid filled coolant loop inside of a high vacuum chamber. how does one feed the coolant into the grid assymbly and keep the chamber from leaking? (this isn't as easy as it sounds) likewise, cooling the fusor shell by any other method than air cooling would cause similar difficulties.

now, using the heat that the fusor produces is (in theory) possible but very wasteful. it would be beter to find a method of converting the kenetic energy of the fusion byproducts directly instead of using it to heat up a transfer medium.

i don't mean to sound critical, but that's the way it is. other's can probably do a much beter job of explaining this and expound upon it as well.

again, this has all been discussed throughly in the past. try using the search function to look through the forum archive. it can take some time, but there's loads of information there.

Q
Hayabusa
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:28 am
Real name:

Re: An energy producing Fusor

Post by Hayabusa »

Thanks for the response Q,

I have read that in some experiments the current suddenly spikes, why is that? Is this current the result of a fussion reaction? Can a fussion reaction generate an electrical current directly?

Thanks again Q
Hayabusa
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:28 am
Real name:

Re: An energy producing Fusor

Post by Hayabusa »

Heres a picture of the idea.

Also I did a search yesturday, as you had suggested, and it works well.

thanks again
Attachments
my fusor.pdf
(17.46 KiB) Downloaded 354 times
Hayabusa
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:28 am
Real name:

Re: An energy producing Fusor

Post by Hayabusa »

Sorry the PDF, in my last reply doesn't seem to work very well.

Here it is as a .jpg
Attachments
fusor_000.jpg
Q
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:45 pm
Real name:

Re: An energy producing Fusor

Post by Q »

well, i'm not sure that i remember the discussion correctly, but i beleive that it was determined that the current spikes were caused by thermionic electron 'avalanch'; where the grid gets hot enough to start 'boiling off' electrons which are then accelerated away from the center of the fusor toward the shell. the increase in electrons will increase the ionization rate of the deuterium and allow more ions to be pulled into the center of the fusor where they hopefully will collide and fuse. this also has the effect of heating the grid even more since a fraction of the ions slam into the grid. if one does not carefully watch for this, it will cause the grid to melt and the fusor to stop fusing. the fusion reaction does not its self appriciably heat the grid or the shell of the fusor. nearly all of this heat comes from the power put into the system to accelerate the deuterium ions.

i think i got that right... i'm still constructing my own fusor.

also, your grid idea is interesting. i'd still not want to attempt making one like that, i'm having enough trouble just attempting a standard solid wire grid. but if you do manage to make one of these please do let us know how well it works.

Q
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14992
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: An energy producing Fusor

Post by Richard Hull »

There are only two ways a fusor might produce electricity directly due to fusion taking place. Both have been discussed previously.

Roger must be forgiven for not having found the past discussions where the ratio of energy fed into a fusor vs. the fusion energy actually produced is shown to be on the order of 100 billion to one or worse. 1000 watts input from a wall outlet for a fusion output of 0.00000001 watt out in most common fusors.

The following is offered to answer the basic questions of capturing all of the fusion energy for conversion to electricity.

1. Sink the entire fusor in heavily borated water. In this fashion you turn all input energy + all fusion energy into hot water. All the fusion related kinematic, charged paticles heat the fusor walls and you heat the water with the neutrons from fusion. No fusor has yet produced enough fusion energy to notice it as an additive to the input electrical energy. If one did get the water hot enough to boil, you could use a standard turbine to drive a generator. (indirect conversion)

2. The P + B11 and other resultant, charged particle fusion reactions have long been eyed for direct conversion of fusion products into electric current, but no one has worked the idea even at a crude demo level!

The issue is one of how do you know you are producing viable energy from #1, above due to fusion when there is so little of it going on in relation to the overwhelming input energy?

#2 demands a process that has just not been explored due to technical difficulties, but would be the number one way of knowing you had fusion related electrical generation for, no matter how miniscule, it could be easily measured, directly with simple instruments.

All other heat transfer schemes are jokes as in some sort of thermoelectric conversion schemes, etc. At least in #1, above, you warrant that nothing fusion related gets away without heating water. 100% transfer of all input and fusion energy to heat. The hassle is and has always been, turning this "combined heat" heat into electricity.

Fission does this indirect conversion just great!!! A lot of us, this evening will cook our meals off fission and catch some fission supplied TV or computer time.

Fusion, for all the billions spent hasn't boiled the first cubic centimeter of water due solely to any fusion process. It seems if we could only run a bit faster we could catch that carrot hung out in front of us.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
brunerww
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:00 am
Real name:

Re: An energy producing Fusor

Post by brunerww »

Dear Mr. Hull, First -- thank you for all that you have done to keep this important area of amateur science alive. Second, speaking of fission, has there been any thought of using the spherical fusor as an inexpensive neutron producer in a small "driven" sub-critical fission reactor? Dr. Miley seems to think this idea has some potential using a standard reactor approach with cylindrical fuel rods [ http://www.n-plasma.com/driven_reaction.html ], but I have not seen any work on driven reactions using the standard sphere (perhaps in a pebble bed?)
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14992
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: An energy producing Fusor

Post by Richard Hull »

Much can be proposed, of course. How much is done is always another matter. Ideas are a dime a dozen. Putting one's foot in the path is the big step that few idea people ever take.

I do not see any overwhelming advantage to the system offered up. Playing with any fission system in even the tiniest experiment towards real proof of functional concept would involve a lot of red tape and at least three or four consenting government agencies.

I predict that the ball stops right here, gets dropped, and bounces out its lifetime in the usual damped oscillatory fashion.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
SteveZ
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:26 pm
Real name:

Re: An energy producing Fusor

Post by SteveZ »

Several experimental sub-critical fission reactors have been built and operated in the past. There was one at the University of Valparaso in northwest Indiana, that was a part of its now defunct nuclear engineering degree. That reactor has been decommisioned some time ago. It used an external Neutron source to start and maintain a fission reaction.
brunerww
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:00 am
Real name:

Re: An energy producing Fusor

Post by brunerww »

Thanks for the reply -- I have asked the NRC about their introductory course for research and test reactor licensing -- besides EPA, what other govt. agencies do you think that I will need to deal with? My local university has a test reactor and a Technology Assistance Program, so I am writing a proposal for them in order to avoid creating a separate site license.
brunerww
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:00 am
Real name:

Re: An energy producing Fusor

Post by brunerww »

Friends, I have to apologize. I have now read the previous traffic on fusion-fission hybrids on this board and understand that this idea is not as new and exciting as I had thought. I will set about the business of learning more about the subject and actually building something before I spout off again.
HighVoltageFox
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:43 pm
Real name:

Re: An energy producing Fusor

Post by HighVoltageFox »

I was thinking of a way to produce energy in one step from fusors, basic straight to energy approch. If a chamber was built around a fusor and filled with a medium to slow neutrons, and a second outer chamber built around the first and sealed; you could fill the 2nd chamber with He3 or BF3 and when struck with neutrons you get energy. Not effient or practical but still a way to collect energy from a fusor.

Andrew
User avatar
Brian McDermott
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 6:28 pm
Real name:

Re: An energy producing Fusor

Post by Brian McDermott »

There is no getting around the fact that there is not a whole lot you can do with the extra 0.00000001 watts you are getting from fusion reactions, let alone extract it at 100%, 75%, 50% or even 30% efficiency.
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14992
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: An energy producing Fusor

Post by Richard Hull »

Brian is fully awake and telling it like it is. The sadness of fusion is that we are like caged animals in a zoo. We see the outside universe powered totally by fusion, much as if we were the animals viewing visitors with bags of candy and food stroll by our cage. A rich bounty lay outside, to be sure.... Inside, however, we can only lust after what we view as a universe of pure energy outpourings. The best we can do, inside, is pickup the odd piece of popcorn or sandwich leftovers thrown at us.

Yes, we are allowed to drool and long for that which is out of our reach and hope to break out of the cage and live where the going appears so smooth.

Fusion takes a lot of energy to start (beating the coulomb barrier) and a whole lot more to keep going (containment). Still, we know it is a net gainer and struggle to see the gains offset our input effort.

If we need a few micro watt minutes of fusion we have the fusor and other accelerator based toys. If we need a single mega-terawatt second of fusion energy, we have H bombs. There is a vast no man's land in between with no clue on how to obtain and use megawatt hours of fusion energy.

Gravity is the key. It is the potential energy that drives the universe. We know all about fusion; how it is done, what makes it happen and even how to use, capture and measure it.

Our limitation is not one of fusion knowledge, but of scale. If gravity is ever unlocked for ready use by man where it can be anulled, amplified and focused, we will finally be more than masters of this planet. We will have joined the universal community with near limitless powers.

It amazes me, in that we have millions of devices and mechanisms that utilize the electron. We have gained full dominion over electrostatic potential energies for they are all short range forces and are locked with significant energies in materials all around us. We have even unlocked, use and control the vast potential energies contained within the atom via fission of the most heavy of elements.

Yet, so far as the knowledge of physics and the precise source and font of all the CHARGE energy, we remain absolutely ignorant. Our technology races leagues ahead of our understanding. We are fortunate donkeys and expert developers. Give us a ball and we WILL run with it. We are the chimps who get the ants via tool use. (Poking a stick into the anthill.) We are unable to fathom core issues, yet, we seem to pride ourselves in our understanding of things. We don't know beans. We DO understand and master tech stuff, however.

Gravity is a large scale force as observed by us. It is unusable except as a slingshot for spacecraft or to force flowing water to turn a paddlewheel as it falls from high ground to low ground.

Alas, the water is always lifted to the high ground via fusion energy supplied due to the good offices of a nearby star.

The star doesn't run off fusion, it runs off the potential energy turned over to matter by gravity.

We have tried to use, what we perceive as a mime of gravity, inertia, as a rosetta stone to fusion, but it fails miserably as it is a mere transitory mime and turns out to only be a muse, a siren's song, that has left us bereft of success and dashed upon the rocks of fusion's shore.

We haven't a clue, of course how to actually utilize gravity the way we, daily, utilize charge. We are not of a scale where we can use it. Still, we are clever tool makers and maybe one day..............but not real soon now.........

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
DaveC
Posts: 2346
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 1:13 am
Real name:

Re: An energy producing Fusor

Post by DaveC »

Wanted to pursue one thought, Richard brought up, involving containment - microwatt minutes.

I have been noodling on this for some time, and am wondering if a better approach, would be to aim for a higher fusion yield on a Per Event basis. Higher batting average, not more times at bat.

On a straight statistical basis... I think this is the correct way to view the Lawson Criteria, you need to obtain a containment - density product of so much in order for "fusion" to happen.

It seems that our fusor approach goes a different way. The plasma is there for minutes, or hours.. at a more or less constant number density of particles. The particle energy can be varied with voltage, and number fraction of particles (ions to ions plus neutrals ratio) can be varied with current. And the neutron yield (neutrons./sec) varies accordingly.

It seems that a practical fusion power source, must have a deterministic operating characteristic - more like classical thermodynamics than like isolated particle quantum mechanics.

Are we really running head-on into the significance of the Heisenberg Uncertainty relation? We may have the energy to fuse, but our aiming accuracy has a spatial limitation, so that we are forever restricted to some limiting number of fusions per try?

In other words, we cannot exceed a certain batting average. And, if that number is too low, then we can never achieve a practical energy return for the input energy investment.

I am still convinced that well focussed colliding ion beams... microns in crossection extent, at mA ion current should have a far larger fusion yield than the simple unfocussed fusor.

I apologize for sounding like either a "broken record" or an "endless DO LOOP" on this. But unless there is a very low energy back door into the fusion proximity of a nucleus, possibly mediated by other material.... and there may be.... this is what we have to work with.

Dave Cooper
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14992
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: An energy producing Fusor

Post by Richard Hull »

Dave said

"Are we really running head-on into the significance of the Heisenberg Uncertainty relation? We may have the energy to fuse, but our aiming accuracy has a spatial limitation, so that we are forever restricted to some limiting number of fusions per try?"

This is the crux of it.... why we can't do it and stars can.

Stars have a massive surface or volumetric range, they do fusion at a micro rate per unit volume/surface, just like we do, (probably a lot worse). Stars have stable, yet rotten confinement. They have this confinement over a time period of billions of years They have low to marginal fusion temperatures over billions of years....., and, ......an almost limitless, omnipresent, supply of fuel throughout this less than ideal but fusion probablistic volume. There are no true controls on a star's fusion fuel burn rate or output beyond where it lies on the main sequence which is pretty much a function of its mass.

From here it is sort of doomed to auto-run for billions of years with the occassional burp or two, perhaps. Gravity powers all stars, not fusion. Fusion is the resultant nuclear conversion release of gravitational energy. (This statement begs further discussion, perhaps.... prehaps in another thread on Fusion theory - off the rails a bit here)

I still see no viable path for power producing fusion.

The suggested time rate of fusion being slowed with the energy per fusion going up is a form of fuel pellet IEC or laser fusion. A slower rate and a massive burst of energy to be converted is not where material science shines just now. Putt-putt boat fusion sounds intriguing until it come to taking the strong putts and efficiently converting them to slower release energy forms.

Still, we dabble at it.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Jacob
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 9:27 pm
Real name:
Contact:

Re: An energy producing Fusor

Post by Jacob »

Has a process been created to extract energy from a system for direct use without spinning a dynamo.
Todd Massure
Posts: 443
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:38 am
Real name: Todd Massure

Re: An energy producing Fusor

Post by Todd Massure »

Plenty of ideas....none that have been demonstrated to work well or at all in practice. You'll find some chatter on this topic on these forums if you search for stuff like: direct energy conversion, etc.
I think many here including myself think it's a worthwhile topic of discussion, but it always boils down to asking why waste time figuring out how to produce electric power from the process when we can't even do the process to any degree of net power?

Todd
Post Reply

Return to “Fusor Construction & Operation (& FAQs)”