Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

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Carl Willis
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Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Carl Willis »

Hi folks,

I was recently at a student meeting in Madison where I had the privilege of observing the large fusor built by a research group at the University of Wisconsin.

Ben Cipiti, a student on this project, told me about experiments showing that most, or perhaps almost all, of the reactions produced in their fusor using D-3He were found to occur in the metal of the cathode due to the embedding and buildup of D and He. One of Cipiti's papers is available free at:

http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/FTI/pdf/fdm1202.pdf

Anyway, I've always been interested in whether a D-D fusor will produce neutrons if it is run "backwards" with the center grid being the anode. If so, this would lend credibility to the theory that most reactions occur in the cathode metal, and perhaps lead us to redirect our efforts toward simpler cathode structures and / or lead us to experiment with different cathode materials in search of higher neutron yield.

So if you have a D-D fusor that makes neutrons and you want to satisfy my curiosity...I think this would be a very informative experiment. Currently my second fusor is under construction and will be for some time yet, hence I'm on the sidelines for a while. Any takers??

-Carl
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Richard Hull
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Richard Hull »

This is quite interesting Carl and needs to be addressed. Hydrogen and D2 and T2 are trapped in a lot of metal lattices. Bombardment and electrolysis have been used.

The CF work tends to use electrolysis. The fusor is obviously a bombardment method. I would have thought that the heating of the grid and the violence of the ion bombardment would act to desorb or re-emit the D2 atoms. Add to this the fact that if the D2 is embedded and merely bombarded, we have lost a hell of a lot of collisional energy and are in a simple target/accelerator situation and suffer a vastly smaller collisional cross section. This might be made up for with very high deuterium densities in the lattice after a suitable period of bombardment.

Lots o' questions, lots o' clues and thoughts, but little data.

Here is where a bit of CF reading would come in handy. The CF people have found the following materials to be excellent CF electrodes and report CF action in the following metals in various cells with successes in the following order. Pd, Ti, Ni. Other metals that are known to readily absorb hydrogen are Ta and W. Making grids from these materials might prove interesting. All have fairly high melting points, melting in the following order, low to high, Ni, Pd, Ti, Ta, W. The #1 protium absorber known to man is Palladium (Pd). Of these metals, the density is, in decreasing order, W, Ta, Pd, Ni, Ti

Again, The bombardment would seem to be just too violent for surface deposition of D2 which is what CF claims are finding (only the first few microns are active sites). Accelerator based bombardment might drive the D2 deeper into the grid metal lattices. In this case, the poor incoming deuterons would have to loose energy to reach the material, especially in the dense Ta grids.

Reports from the original farnsworth team all told me that they always got a short puff or rise in pressure immediately after shutdown. They asked me if I noticed this and I affirm this small but interesting anomoly. Perhaps the bombardment so heavily loads the lattice and creates an effective film of dense D2 there, and upon shutdown when the bombardment ceases, it instantly outgasses to some stable lattice condition of absorbed D2.

Finally, What about CF action here? Is our production close to the Cross sectional estimates or in excess. I always felt in excess. We just do it too easy at only 30kev. Most nice target generators use over 100kev and tritium!

If reversal is tried, then the shell would be the absorber metal and the wire grid an anode. With all the electrons headed here you might run the risk of a melt down. Perhaps a solid or more intricate anode grid in the reversed case will be demanded.....provided, of course, that efficient fusion is possible in reverse polarity mode.

Almost too much to think about.

Richard Hull
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Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by dlsworks »

Mr. Willis,

I postd this in another thread a few weeks back, ..don't know if you seen it....
http://www.nucl.phys.tohoku.ac.jp/fusio ... kasagi.pdf
....a specific info tidbit.

BTW I dis plan to make this part of my foci in future fusor setups. One of many experiments that had crossed my mind was that of similiarly using a sphere (not solid) as in the Wis. Uni. setup but completely perforated say with >400nm holes.

darius
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Richard Hull
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Richard Hull »

I did see the original posting of this paper. It is effectively a CF/CANR/LENR paper. These papers, once effectively banned, are now getting published. I am pleased with this trend.

The fusor appears to be doing hot fusion as the reactants are the well understood reactants. CF tends report a spread of emitted particles, or not, and a lot of transmutation products which seem out of step with normal physics predictions. Whether this is scatter due to the near noise level CF system data gathering or some bizzarre nuclear chemistry proton exchange mechansim, only time will tell.

Certainly I am open to warm fusion in lattices and this might be what the fusor is if this "fusion in the grid" hypothesis pans out.

Regardless, at first blush, it seems to be common hot fusion aided by some form of natural target self assembly under bombardment. Solid central grids or heavier grids of special materials are worth following up on. I think part of the key here is, and will remain, the nearly perfect spherical symmetry with its natural self focusing action, electrostatic acceleration and a central grid/target.

Wouldn't it be funny and ironic if the fusor discussion actually straddled hot and cold fusion or leads to a break through in linking the vast gulf afixed between the intractable and well established hot fusion community and the baby that nearly went out with the wash-water of cold fusion/ lattice fusion and its shunned community of adherants.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Adam Szendrey »

Richard,

I just had this crazy idea...What if the "runaway" effect is actually a fusion "blast" inside the cathode material? I'm not sure if that is possible, or how. I just thought i share this idea that popped into my mind :).

Adam
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Richard Hull »

GREAT THOUGHT! The most intriguing and best working CF cells on record have also RUN AWAY nearly melting or boiling off large amounts of the cell electrolytes. All of the best CF cells that didn't do this good, but worked, at least showed a sustained BURST of activity producing energy and then a die down.

WOW! This stuff might be at the cusp of fusion in the solid state. But like all good science you have to be able to duplicate on demand. With no real theory in hand, no reproducability on an engineering basis, a melt down of an entire CF or fusor setup and the deaths of all of the experimenters to radiation exposure would still only be considered annecdotal evidence of fusion. Annecdotal, only because you couldn't make the same setup and kill another batch of experimenters.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Adam Szendrey »

Wow! I didn't know that CF cells can produce such a runaway event. We might be discovering something really great here.
The question here is, WHY is there a runaway? And WHAT are the parameters that lead to a runaway? Does it happen after running the fusor for a long time? How is it related to the voltage/current/pressure? To me it seems that all of this can only be answered via experimentation.
It would be great to know more about the runaway event back at ITT.
The problem is that such an event is very rare.We might be able to increase the possibility.
IF it is due to a fusion "blast" in the cathode material, then using a solid Palladium cathode might result in some interesting data....Ofcourse if the "danger" of a runaway is at an elevated possibility then one would use loads of lead shielding, and a pit, to prevent a disaster. Palladium is expensive, so tungsten might be another option.
Just in case the runaway effect prooves to be sort-of a CF event, and the result is an immense blast of energy, the how can it be contained? How can one control a runaway? It sounds like controlling an avalanche. The cathode desintegrates and the reactions end instantly.

Adam
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Richard Hull »

Runaways in CF cells are rather common in successful experiments, but not usually a threat. They can range from a 10 minute boiling water event, (rare and nasty) to a 3 day heating event of 120% over unity output. (more common slow heating of system). What little neutron instrumentation is at hand during these events shows little or no neutron output! This is why CF is so weird and why so many scientists have felt it is chemical in nature. Unfortunately, there is that nasty nuclear transformation of many metals across the board in post runaway cell electrode material which is always analyized post mortem.

It would do all well to bone up on the more recent and interesting CF events. (See the new forum for the URLs that will lead you there.) A runaway fusor is more likely to pose a serious threat and be far more energetic than a CF cell as the backup electrical energy is of a greater nature than a low voltage CF cell bench supply.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Proposed polarity - reversal experiment

Post by Roberto Ferrari »

Probably a "blank" test can be runned in order to see if the runaway is due just to an excess of power, applying the same conditions of the fusor but with a non-fusing gas, may be N2 or Ar.
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Re: Proposed polarity - reversal experiment

Post by Richard Hull »

Roberto,

How is it possible that you respond to a post and have it show up as a new post with no responses?

When you need to respond to a post, hit the "reply" button at the bottom of the post.

DO NOT hit "post" and type in the old title. Post is for starting a completely unique and new thread ONLY.

In answer to your question.................. We cannot make a fusor runaway! There fore a null test is valueless. It does it as if by magic or when it damned well feels the urge to do it. Just like CF cells. We have no clue or even hint as to why it happens, what causes it, or what the proper conditions are to even set it on the path to runaway. ZERO hard data on how to get a fusor to run away.

The only two recorded runaways here are well documented and no excess power was used or drawn during either event. Jon Rosentiel's "event" was the most stunning and frightening.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Proposed polarity - reversal experiment

Post by Roberto Ferrari »

Thanks, Richard.
I was trying to understand what was gone wrong with my message!
By the way, what do you think of a "blank" test? Surely using other ion mass require a correction factor to be applied in order to evaluate the delivered power to the grid.
Roberto
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Richard Hull
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Re: Proposed polarity - reversal experiment

Post by Richard Hull »

I just answered your question above. We must have posted at the same instant as I appended my original post.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Proposed polarity - reversal experiment

Post by r_c_edgar »

I've moved this posting so it's now a part of the correct thread.

--Ryan
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Re: Proposed polarity - reversal experiment

Post by Roberto Ferrari »

Richard,
I searched into the fusor files not finding the Jon Rosentiel's runaway.
Would you be so kind to point me to a detailed report of it?
Roberto
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Re: Proposed polarity - reversal experiment

Post by Richard Hull »

I found it easily. As it was Jon's post in this forum, I search under the AUTHOR and found "Anomolous event"

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2304#p11814

There are a lot of ways to search this place. The term run-away is not universally used.

The discussion on this was quite amazing and more details are given in the responses, as you can see. The event is real and almost never seen, but this stuff does happen and just freaks out all who have it happen. The same way a hook is deeply set in anyone witnessing a CF runaway event.

The most significant event occured to the old, original Farnsworth fusor team in the 60's. Their event flooded and blacked out every neutron film badge in the place!!! It really shook them up and upset the rad safety officer so much that he never reported the event. It has been confirmed to me personally by two eyewitnesses and one third party who was friends with a third eyewitness (now deceased)

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Proposed polarity - reversal experiment

Post by Roberto Ferrari »

As you already stated, there are a lot of variables playing in the fusor.
Did the Farnsworth team published that event? Does exist records of all the monitored parameters during that neutron surge?
Double checks seem a must. I see you record simultaneously neutrons, gamma rays and activation isotopes. Nobody uses film record (you know, those neutron radiographies, I don't remember the intermediary material)? Would be a permanent record.
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Re: Proposed polarity - reversal experiment

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As I said, it was a matter of possibly shutting down the entire project! .......With everyone losing their jobs. It was a one time event! It was not formally recorded within the corporation as an event!

Therefore, there is only the human record and the record of the badge development, reading and reporting company which no longer exists. The report that all personnel badges and all room and pit wall mounted badges were overexposed and therefore unreadable was sent back to the safety officer who "deep sixed" it! The project continued for another 3 years. It really shook them up as processed film badges don't lie. As most of the team members are in the late autumn of their lives >70 years old, they are just now willing to speak of it without fear of trouble.

There exists no formal written report. I have seen the fear and reticence on behalf of all involved and believe these highly trained people who were just trying to keep their jobs.

All of this is based on personal, sit-down, face-to-face interviews with the parties actually present at the event or privy to conversations of other who were.


Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Adam Szendrey »

To sum things a bit...If the fusor can actually initiate a CF runaway event, then a solid palladium cathode could be a good idea to try.
BUT.
Anyone who tries such an experiment, risks that a serious runaway might occur. A solid palladium cathode would surely increase the effect many folds. A 1 kW fusor running away with such a cathode might actually rupture the thick stainless shell, and blow white hot metal fragments all around.
The radiation involved would probably be extreme for a short time, killing anything organic nearby. A miniature neutron bomb...
I just wonder though...if CF cells do not emit elevated neutron rates, than why do these runaway events show theirselves as an increased neutron emission? We are looking at the unknown here...Aahh...the good old days ;). This is true science.

Adam
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Richard Hull »

Based on the frequency of runaways I think we need not worry at all. Besides, you can always kill power, dump the vacuum or otherwise kill the fusion reaction. A killing neutron release would be accompanied by a heating effect and instant loss of fuel. None of these have ever been seen or heard of. Everyone lived. However, it is obvious that the stable and normally observed fusion was most likely enhanced significantly during the event.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Adam Szendrey »

Such a runaway IS very rare, but maybe with a directed epxeriment , using a solid palladium or tungsten electrode (to my knowledge this has never been tried) MIGHT increase the probability, and MIGHT also increase the effect many folds. Taking pre-cautions never hurts, even if the probability is very low.

Adam
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Richard Hull »

True, but again, just be prepared to pull the plug. Jon Rosentiel did and so did the Farnsworth people. It is just that simple.

Keep good lab notes before you do the experiment that way if you die, or become a martyr to the cause we can come in, pick up the pieces and collect on all the good ideas.

If an event so deadly as you would prepare for actually happens, you could not afford the requisite shielding to protect yourself anyway. If you got a fission reactor flux, one that could actually be used to generate viable power, six feet of lead and concrete would barely be suitable. Barring this, working at an air range of 1 kilometer from the fusor would be sufficient.

I have a huge book that scientifically documents some exposed core reactor experiments in a forest in Georgia during the 50's and 60's. They pulled a working reactor core out to a remote railroad siding and cranked it up and let fly. Trees were denuded 2000 feet away and all fauna perished, save bugs, for a kilometer. Dirt berms 1000 feet away shielded small plants which were the sole flora in a scene of desolation. 100 feet from the reactor core, an ant hill prospered as worker ants went about there busy way in a 10,000 rad field. It is nice to know that in a total nuclear exchange and holocaust that all life on earth would not be wiped out. Those were the days.......

Richard Hull
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Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Jon Rosenstiel »

How about using vacuum deposition to apply a thin coating of Pd (or Ni, or Ti) to the cathode? Do-able in the amateur lab. Would certainly be a fraction of the cost of a solid palladium cathode.

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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Adam Szendrey »

Not a bad idea. Though you can buy tungsten rods in a welder shop. I'm not sure how pure those are, and if there is any coating on it's surface. If it's simply a tungsten rod then it can be used as an electrode (a small piece could be cut from the rod).
Surely palladium is better than tungsten for CF.
I'm not even sure where to get the palladium (for sputtering) from.

Adam
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Brian McDermott »

Kurt J. Lesker has it under evaporation sources. They sell it in 1/4" x 1/4" cylindrical pellets. Each pellet is about $25. Smaller 1/8" x 1/8" pellets are $10. It is 99.95% pure.
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Re: Proposed polarity-reversal experiment

Post by Adam Szendrey »

Thanks Brian! Relatively reasonable price. A lot of test targets can be coated with that amount of palladium i guess.

Adam
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