A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

It may be difficult to separate "theory" from "application," but let''s see if this helps facilitate the discussion.
S Silvawalker
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A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by S Silvawalker »

I post this to approach the commonly asked question of, "why can a fusor not break even?" in a hopefully more professional and direct thought experiment. I do not claim to have any theoretical system to attain the conditions described, all I wish to do is get a more intuitive understanding of the physics behind this concentric accelerator system when nuclear fusion occurs. There are several questions which I think it would benefit most beginners in this forum to see answers to. Firstly, the effect of the inner accelerating cathode on falling ions is to attract them towards the central negative potential well of the fusor, if there were to be a grid which was one hundred percent transparent to the falling ions and produced alpha particles, what impact would that have on the efficiency of a fusor? How would an increase to the current and thus the number of effectively accelerated ions, along with an increase in potential well depth differ from the impact they would have in a real fusor. Secondly, is there any equation that would describe the number of fusions from the velocity, density, and losses, along with factoring in, somehow, the interactions of outgoing products of fusion to heat the plasma? It is confusing to myself at least, whether or not the Lawson Criterion can be used in the case of a fusor with or without a perfectly transparent cathode, and if it can be used I would greatly appreciate an example for a fusor. Finally, what is the greatest ion loss in a fusor? Is it the falling ions colliding with the cathode or thermionically emitted electrons, bremsstrahlung radiation, metal ion contaminants from the heated cathode, or some other mechanism which I have missed? Also, on a shorter note would one say in a that a fusor would have an infinite confinement time or a non-existent one since the ion collisions can be negated in this line of thinking and the ions exist in an infinitely bound velocity space?
Thank you for your time.


P.S if anyone knows the vapor pressure of solder paste please tell me, I think I have a useless grid now since I can't clean all of it off...
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by Dennis P Brown »

You have a few mis-understandings and need to learn a bit more on both fusors here (see FAQ's) and read up on the physics of fusion in our Sun.

A fusor produces essentially zero (as far as instrumentation for power goes) energy output from fusion. All the heat is created by the power supply so fusion products are not an issue at all. The reason is obvious and if you read the FAQ's you will learn why. Ditto for most the issues you ask about. For example - issues like minor contaminates isn't generally a concern for fairly average vacuum work because the plasma will burn away many of those problems. Speaking of which, that should fix your "flux" issue unless you used massive amounts. Then the issue of a physical cathode means little for the average fusor - as for alpha particles, they have no relevancy at all for a simple fusor.

Buzz words are only useful if you understand them and relate the processes to a fusor; again, there are FAQ's and many, many posts on all these subjects by people here who are really knowledgeable so take the time and search these topics yourself. You will discover a wealth of useful information. This is far better than spoon feeding a few random answers (like I just did) that don't provide enough context unless one wants to write many papers of information.
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by S Silvawalker »

I regret starting with that quote, it was meant to act as a hook although I think now it may have simply acted as a distraction from what I meant to say. In broader terms, the obvious reason as to why a fusor can not come anywhere near to ignition is because of heat losses caused by deuteron collisions with the inner grid and any product heat is lost to the walls of the chamber or simply leaves the system, that is established. The question was how an impossible device, similar to the ideal operating form of the polywell designed by Robert Bussard, in which the inner cathode was simply an area of negative charges would act. This question is not for the technical formation of a device but rather for a more useful set of operating laws for an inertial electrostatic fusion device.

The theory behind Dr. Robert Bussard's work, as is well known by many of those on this site some of whom had the fortune of meeting and working with him, was to use a series of magnetic mirrors to act as a confinement system for an electron cloud, and while the electrons remained in the center they would act as the cathode of the IEC system. Further more the theory perdicted and later demonstrated a "wiffle ball" effect where the electrons would be mostly excluded from the center of the cathode area by their own velocity and simply act as a negative sphere of charge allowing for the ions to only interact with each other for the most part. The logic behind this theory was that since the electron cloud was even more transperent to falling deuterons, the losses by ion impact to the inner grid would of course be zero allowing for the plasma to only radiate its heat away through particle collisions with the outer wall. The problem with polywells is that they rely on a perfect magnetic bottle and unfortunately lack the recirculation of plasmas needed to make up for their low confinement time as a magnetic system. They also lose energy to the redirection of the elctrons by the falling ions.

The summary of polywells above is to help show the similarities between those devices and this impossibe device with a perfectly transperent grid. In such a decice no deuterons could be lost to the outer wall unless by tunneling since they can never (ignoring centrifugal force) fly further out than the potencial with which they started unless they gain energy seperate from the potencial well. This would mean almost perfect recirculation and vastly reduced losses.
This can be seen if one takes into consideration the thermal capacity of a tungsten grid as is often used in neutron generating demo fusors as 24.8 J/mol K. So of course that is the major point of loss for those fusors as even the best fusors which I have seen have only reached 500,000 neutrons per second which would only generate about 2.6x10^-7 joules of total energy. But that is te point of the thought experiment. Based on some rough calculations for the number of particles involved in that system at 9.6 microns, the total number of paricles in the chamber was around 3.0x10^9, and that means a loss percentage of 99.98%. By what I have read those are grid losses and a result of the low probability of the tunneling which this type of fusion depends upon.

So the question I was asking was, based on that, what is the percentage loss to the grid and if one made a system with a virtual grid, then what would be the equation to define its output energy, both useable and non useable and could the Lawson criterion be used. This question seems important as while a fusor may never be able to break even, many seem to think that a polywell stands a chance and the mechanism for that to be possible either depends on the confinement time of that system or its lack of an inner grid.
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by Richard Hull »

Good fusors regularly hit the mega n/s mark. ( 2 million fusions/s +)
Grid losses in any fusor is pitiably small. There are many other losses of greater import keeping the fusor from improving. These have been discussed at some length in past posts. The grid is of no real concern, loss-wise. Due to the many losses in a simple fusor, as built here, it is an energy black hole. Still, it does fusion very inexpensively, if that alone is your goal. Improving the fusor by an order of magnitude, on the very cheap is just not possible.

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Dennis P Brown
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by Dennis P Brown »

As a FYI: The Polywell concept just isn't the answer at all for the problem with a fusor. As an aside: a very large polywell device was built not long ago, funded by the Navy, had some nice results as a virtual cathode and was abandoned because it will not ever be a usable methodology to do fusion for even minor power output; forget break even. That is many, many orders of magnitude higher than what a polywell will likely achieve. And that ignores issues like Bremsstrahlung loses. You are focusing on a topic many have looked at and frankly, has gone no where.

Your number of particles in a chamber at 9.6 x10^ -3 torr is very, very far off. There are, roughly 10^21 molecules STP per liter (about the volume for a small chamber.) At 10^ -2 torr (10 microns) or 10^-5 atm (rounding 760 to 1000 to keep things simple) that would be 10^16 particles in the chamber - appropriately. So you might want to recalculate using that value.

Again, a physical cathode has no impact at all on fusors and for reasons that Richard pointed out.

As Richard says, if you have an idea - go and build it and then come back and we will discus your results.
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by S Silvawalker »

Thank you for the feedback and I will recalculate for the new values and construct a better model for this situation.
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by S Silvawalker »

I am almost ready to start doing neuron tests with my reactor based on this theory. My conclusion for the best way to approach the construction of the device was to position 4 electron beams fired in pairs such that they cross perpendicularly forming a square of higher negative charge like an electron beam ion trap but with 4 lower current beams. I theorize that the rate of fusion will increase linearly with the accelerating voltage of the electron beams based on some rough Coulomb's law calculations. Also, based on those calculations the current of the beam directly influences the average velocity of the infalling ions as they pass the centre. Chasing leaks and cleaning the components now but I'm hoping to have evidence of neutrons being produced by the middle of August so I can write my results as soon as possible. I can't publish anything since I'm still an undergrad and my field of study is aerospace but I wrote a detailed hypothesis on ResearchGate a while ago.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... on_Reactor

I intend to stop building when I get my results so I can focus on university but I will build a larger system as soon as I have time. This first device uses cathode ray tubes scavenged from old televisions but I have been looking for a manufacturer for cold cathode accelerators since they will be more efficient. Also the current chamber is some KF 50 chamber with a separate Edwards E2M8 vacuum pump so I hope I can build a more specialized chamber with the help of my school's in space propulsion lab since that is in my department. However, all these improvements will likely take another few years so updates will probably be very spaced out.
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by Dennis P Brown »

First off, excellent that you are building something to test your ideas. I appreciate using old TV parts for ion guns (did that in college many years ago, too. It was even fusion related.) Regardless of your results, keep experimenting and learning as you have time. Testing ideas is always a good step in learning what does and does not work; been there and had 'crash and burn' results on what I thought was a good idea/theory related to a neutron detector. You are certainly way ahead of many here that speculate and do nothing else.

Unfortunately, I do not think you will get the results you are speculating on achieving - electrons are almost four thousand times less massive than a deuteron. So the ions will not respond in a linear fashion as electrons increases in energy (and for other reasons.) Also, electrons repell so your four beams will not create much of a trap nor cause much accelerating charge buildup for ions.

That does not mean you won't achieve some fusion - you will need a very sensitive detector in all likelihood.
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by Patrick Lindecker »

Hello Storm,

Just to make you know that your PDF DirectElectronBeamInertialElectrostaticConfinementNuclearFusionReactor.pdf is unfortunatly not readable here, for an unknown reason. Perhaps, I'm not the sole person to have this problem (?)

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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by S Silvawalker »

I spent a long time trying to find results on the scattering of electron beams by other beams and by ions but couldn't find anything. I am hoping that the number and velocity of the electrons will prevent significant scattering by the infalling ions and the other beams similar to how the electrons aren't significantly scattered in an EBIT because of their velocity. At the simplest level I could think of, the velocity of the electrons would be the limiting factor on how many ions could be confined. This implies that the number of fusion events is purely based on the accelerating voltage of the CRTs and not the beam current or overall power used.

Something in my reasoning seems off that may be due to my treating the beams as a collection of point charges and I was thinking of coding a full simulation but it was easier to just start building and testing.

I'm not sure why the link won't work but if anyone else is having that problem I will attach my old paper to this post.

My apologies for its form. I wrote it over several years while I was in highschool and it is very much a mosaic of ideas. At the bottom are a bunch of images from the experiments i used to form my idea.
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by John Futter »

Storm
I have taken time to look through your document
several things you need to improve on
1`./ vacuum your test rig has many leaks --this from the plasma pics you are at torr not millitorr. you need a good pirani gauge
2./ reusing electron optics means you have to use them at the design voltage and vacuum for crts around 2 x 10-8 torr and if a colour set of size 32" then about 36kV to run the optics
3./ I work in an ion beam lab and we go to a lot of trouble to remove electrons from our systems so that they do not neutralize any of our ions --we cannot steer or manipulate neutrals magnetically or electrostatically
4./ you need to get a copy of Simion to help with your design verification before you expend a great deal of time and money going down a dead end
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by S Silvawalker »

Screenshot_20200803-152227_Gallery.jpg
Screenshot_20200803-152227_Gallery.jpg (80.95 KiB) Viewed 11808 times
I am using a very different setup to my one in 2018 and I now have a pressure in the 1 to 100 micron range. I modified the original circuitry of the sets to get the required voltages and filament currents. I have yet to run any simulations as I wanted to know I could fabricate my device before pushing the theory further since my university is unlikely to help and most of my work will be self funded.

Since I'm doing something I have found no evidence of anyone trying before even if i don't find what I'm looking for here this device will likely have more value as a pathfinder for my future builds.
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by S Silvawalker »

Re ionization seems to be caused by beam collisions in an EBIT so I wonder if that would solve the problem of neutral atom formation when combined with the accelerating potential? I will try to make simulations but that will be later on
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by Patrick Lindecker »

Hello,

Thanks for the interesting document. I looked at your main diagram and I hope that I undestood the principle.

It seems possible to create an electrons cloud in the A zone but at a price of an enormous electrons injection power.
Each electron is injected with a yield of 0.5 for a good ion gun (kinetic energy/electrical energy). The electron kinetic energy is completly lost by colliding the electrode 9 (kinetic energy -> mechanical and radiation energy). As you proposed a direct electrostatic conversion would be possible but it is complex and the yield (electrical energy/kinetic energy) is not equal to 1 (rather 0.6).

The confinement time of an electron in the cloud is extremely small, just the time to cross the A zone (several ns). The potential created in the A zone will be extremely low (mV or microV ?) except by using very powerful ion guns (but the final yield of this apparatus will be, at best, the same as the fusor one, about 1E-9). Note that the goal would be to have a potential of at least -35 kV.

In my opinion, the diagram misses only a way to confine electrons in the A zone during, let's say, 1 sec. In that case, the neutral pressure will have to be extremely low (<1 microPa) to avoid to lose electrons energy in collisions with neutrals.

Patrick Lindecker
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by S Silvawalker »

My idea is to not try and confine the electrons at all rather they never lose enough energy to recombine with the ions. Think of an electron beam ion trap but with 3 or 4 beams instead of 1. The key is that the electrons don't have to be lost and in a final system the losses can be minimized from the electron beams by slowing and recollecting the electrons after they pass the centre. It is based on the idea that in an idea world a particle accelerator with no collisions would only have to impart 1MeV to each ion to give the highest probability of fusion which could release more.

If any one point along the beam of electrons is treated as a point charge, equivalent to the number of electrons in that cross section of the beam, then the charges and masses of the infalling particles, assuming the electrons are fixed and solve for the required distance for the ions to gain 1 MeV. Assuming a beam current of 1 micro amp and only deuterons being accelerated the acceleration distAnce needed is 8 ish mm which fits my chamber. The remaining problem is finding a high enough accelerating voltage for the electrons such that they aren't scattered significantly by the infalling ions or other electron beams.
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by Patrick Lindecker »

Thanks for the explanations.

>in a final system the losses can be minimized from the electron beams by slowing and recollecting the electrons after they pass the centre.
However, due to successive yields, you will recover perhaps 1/3 of the primary energy as a maximum. It seems difficult to do better.

OK to accelerate ions with electrons, via Coulomb collisions between ions and electrons. Of course, you know that energy transfer coefficient between a light particle (electron) and a heavy particle (D+) is low (a mean value of 2*me /mD+, so about 0.00054), with a big scattering angle for the electron an a very small one for the D+ ion.

However why not... Good testing.

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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by John Futter »

Storm your new plasma pic still is about the 100's of microns
do not forget that mean free path at 1 micron is only 5cm and an electron hitting an air molecule is immediately going to disappear at some weird angle with out doing very much to the air molecule as pointed out by Patrick
As pointed out before Simion ( or Comsol multiphysics) does also allow electron trajectories and intereactions your University will /should have this program (ours do).
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Don't get discouraged - all new ideas run into problems and people here are trying to both help you understand issues with your ideas/approach and trying to help you correct possible short commings in your system. But new ideas that push at extremel parameters often require both good setups and more theoretical understanding.

To get realistic free paths for ions and electrons, both a very high quality vacuum system and a diffusion pumps w/cold trap or a turbo is absoultely required (generally, 10^-6 torr is a good bench mark.) There is no way around that issue. You simply can't accelerate electrons to high energy without a very good/high vacuum.

To accelerate electrons to 1 MeV requires that voltage! As pointed out, very little of that electron energy will be coupled to ions due to the mass difference and low propablity for a direct strike - you can't change physics. So to get a significant current at 1 MeV even for just the average fusor, would require a significant output of a power plant. That is an easy calculation and you really need to look at that - remember, current is everything when it comes to fusors and even then all you get is their trivial fusion rate.
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by S Silvawalker »

The necessary energy for the electrons in the beams and therefore the needed accelerating potential is still an unknown. The 1MeV stated was the approximate per ion energy to maximize their cross section for fusion in the case of deuterium and tritium and did not refer to the electrons. The image is from a run using some old oil I'm doing a series of oil changes and pump tests to get the pressure down. I will be back at my university after January so until then I only have so much time and space to work with and within so I am only going to be using a mechanical pump, which is rated to reach 0.75 microns although it is quite old. There won't be much scientific rigor to these tests but if I get any neutron detection then i will be confident it moving to the next build.
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

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Using deuterium ions instead of electrons makes the effort even more difficult in energy costs for MeV level ion energies. One would never use electron collisions to accelerate deuterium to such high energies. MeV level deuterium ions are generally achieved by using large accelerating electric fields - like a Van de Graaff. And the x-ray flux from any electrons in such a field would be highly dangerous.

As for your pump, if mechanical, getting down to 5 to 15 microns is possible (sorry, highly unlikely any mechanical pump can do 0.75 microns - if you can reach 5 microns you have an excellent pump.) The issue is often leaks in the system, rather than the pump. To test that, connect a vacuum gauge that can read microns to the pump inlet and measure the pump alone. That tends to give a better idea on if the pump is the issue or leaks.
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by S Silvawalker »

It isn't the electron- ion collisions that are the primary acceleration source that is the accelerating potential between the electron beams and the housing. Ions will be attracted towards the beams and repelled by the positively charged housing and CRT anodes. I saw experiments with pressures around 13 microns getting neutrons so 5 to 15 is reasonable. I don't expect the pump to reach its stated pressure I had to do a double take when I saw what it said it could do as well. I predict that so long as the pressure is low enough for the electron beams to be fired, this setup should be more forgiving towards pressure when compared to a regular fusor.

In an electron beam ion trap the ions are confined radially by their attraction to the electron beam through the centre and along the length of the beam by the positively charged drift tubes. These devices are operating at far higher charge densities within the beams when compared to mine but can also confine heavy elements such as uranium ions so lighter ion confinement should also be possible.
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

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Yes - 5 to 15 microns (and higher for smaller fusors) is absolutely the ideal range. However, you have indicated you are aiming for long lived ions; and this is only possible at much higher vacuums. Ditto for electrons and them forming a trap. At 5 to 10 microns, most electrons will be scattering off other ions or electrons. To form any type of ion trap, the very high vacuum must be achieved. Ditto for 'drift tubes'. Just calculate free paths lengths for given pressures or just look them up.

The ions in a fusor are traveling at fairly high velocities so even if one has a 'negative' charged region (i.e. as a polywell was supposed to do) the amount of ions then being 'trapped' would extremely small. Plus ions that are trapped, can only fuse via tunneling and that is very difficult for slow ions. So trapping deuterium ions would more likely lower fusion rates. The ion speed does assist in getting the ions close enough that tunneling can be enhanced.

Last, when you say that the ions are accelerated by the potential between the case and an electron beam - sorry but no. First, at 5 mircons you won't have any defined electron beam (again, see free path.) The charge created by the electrons striking deuterium molecules cause a small region near the gun to be filled with positive ions so the net field in that area will be essentially neutral. That is why fusors use very powerful transformers to create the electric field to accelerate ions and not electron beams.
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by S Silvawalker »

Firstly, I agree for future builds I will definitely need a higher vacuum pump such as a turbo or diffusion one. However, for testing with ions only traversing the diameter a few hundred times each the ions are long lived enough.

Secondly, the electron beam will be well defined as the electrons travel unscattered enough in a CRT television, at 300 microns far more than I am working at, to form a sharp image at, in the case if the televisions I used, over 25cm away from the accelerator. I had seen the negative region I predicted was not far in front of the anode so for this build the region where the beams cross is only 1 cm in front of the accelerating anodes and the square the beams trace is only 2cm to a side. This minimizes the distance needed for the electrons to travel.


Unfortunately my deuterium is taking longer than expected to arrive and I am still chasing leaks so I still have to work from theory for a bit longer.
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Re: A Thought Experiment on Ideal Conditions

Post by Richard Hull »

All CRTs are pumped to at least 10e-6 torr usually deeper, if possible. 10e-6 torr is .001 microns! We never use micron terms, however for deep vacuums that are in CRTs. 300 microns are terrible junk glow discharge ranges. 300 microns = .3 torr. CRTs are at .000001 torr.

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