Deuterium Lecture bottle

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TannerOates
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Deuterium Lecture bottle

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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

Yep, that's the right stuff, but Sigma Aldrich won't have anything to do with you unless you are a business or university. Good Luck
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TannerOates
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by TannerOates »

So what source to you suggest.
jcs78227
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by jcs78227 »

We use Sigma-Aldrich at work, but the obvious caveat already pointed out applies. For individuals, Airgas (airgas.com) is preferred at least by me for amateur work and a few others. Matheson Tri-Gas (mathesongas.com) has shipped to me as well. These are are heavy duty gas suppliers for industry, so you need to know what kind of purity you're looking for, amount, whether you want a lecture bottle (smaller, convenient, pay up front and most are non-refillable) or a larger tank (longer lasting, refillable, rented/leased, transport costs). LB's are what I've seen in an amateur setting (with one exception), payment terms, etc.

If you are under 18, actually 21 in some instances, it's a no-go. You have to have an adult order these gases. Sure, some get around the age thing, but they have been clamping down recently. Also, refer to this post by Richard Hull for a plausible and legitimate reason for needing it--> viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3161#p19748

I tell them what it's for and they have no clue, but it hasn't mattered.

Good luck...you seem to be making progress rather expeditiously. Excellent!

-Jonathan
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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

It's a shame that Sigma-Aldrich won't ship to individuals. They have a great variety of research chemicals. They recently refused to ship to my son's grandfather who is legitimately incorporated as a chemical supply consultant. He has been in the plating chemical business for decades and has legally used way more hazardous stuff at his address than the deuterium gas they won't ship him. They rejected him because they said they somehow determined his address was a private residence. I guess someone there with nothing better to do google-earthed his address and determined it looks like a home when viewed from outer space.

I have also been rejected by Airgas and Matheson. I suspect the ability to deal with different suppliers may vary by locality, so you may want to still try them in your area. Age is definitely not the reason that I get rejected as I am pushing 50. I was told by multiple suppliers that it doesn't have anything really to do with deuterium, but rather its a combined issue of homeland security and meth lab crap. Good luck ever buying nitric acid even though that is a very commonly used chemical and older bottles of sit in most high school chem labs. By the way, the suppliers will ship to a university but not a high school.

I'm probably the last person you want advice from on obtaining deuterium gas because we still don't have any ourselves. If you strike out getting gas an want to go the electrolysis route, you will find that most chemical supply companies won't ship you heavy water either. United Nuclear is the way to go there. I have successfully purchased some D2O from them.

I wish you speedy luck in your search.

Jim K
Edward Miller
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by Edward Miller »

It's because when they do shipping FedEx and UPS know the address is residential.

They're just trying to limit their liability. With chemicals the purchaser takes on the risk and they're just more comfortable knowing that it's a business with appropriate insurance.

United Nuclear sells Nitric Acid and a variety of other stuff although at higher rates than regular chemistry suppliers. Your best bet is always to pull in someone from a local college that's interested in helping.

I highly recommend Advanced Specialty Gases out of Reno, NV they have always been reasonable and their pricing is good.

http://www.advancedspecialtygases.com
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by billwcf »

Hi, I talked to my local Airgas/National Welders guy. If you happen to live in Va, NC., Or SC, you can get deuterium from them. Don't know about other states; You will have talk to them. I was quoted $82.50 for 25 liters and $165 for 50 liters, tank included. There is also a $10.50 hazmat fee charge. It is 99.7% D2 (CP? grade). You have to establish a cash account with them. I just purchased a rather large bottle of 99.9999% H2 from them with no problems. Of course I can't be responsible for the accuracy of these quotes.

For Nitric acid, try these guys: http://www.chemical-supermarket.com/sea ... ode=search

-bill
jcs78227
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by jcs78227 »

bill fain wrote:
>It is 99.7% D2 (CP? grade).

CP is a reagent grade abbreviation for Chemically Pure. Depending on the material in question, it can be anywhere from slightly more pure to significantly more pure in nature than technical grade.

-Jonathan
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Doug Coulter
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by Doug Coulter »

I have many books that refer to CP as "commercially pure" *not* "chemically pure" and in any case, it'd be the rare case to call 97% "reagent grade" except in special situations. Not to pick nits though. D from a cylinder definately works far better than what you can get with electrolysis, which tends to get a lot of other junk in it, from air dissolved and released from the solution, to the obvious water vapor.

We ran tests here on D purity, and find that about 1/2% of various impurities make the fusor run more stably, but with somewhat less neutron output per power input. So it matters to some. FWIW, it was most sensitive to H2O impurity (we also tried He, N2, A, and welding gas mixes, and shop air), which the CP stuff is probably pretty free of. We found no changes going from ~.5% impurity to 99.999% (5 9's) purity here. We bought (paid for!) 6 nines pure gas from Matheson, but my mass spectrometer says we only get 5 nines in real life. I must say, they are good to deal with, and the nice two stage regulator we got from them is also about as sweet as they come - works down to almost vacuum on the output line with good regulation.

I did one deal with Advanced specialty gases. Not so sweet, though they did ship to me no problems and the product was good quality. By the time I paid hazmat and for a dedicated truck (they insisted) that waist high bottle of neon with 1k psi in it cost me $2500. Anyone want to buy some repackaged neon?

It's so easy to set up as a business, I wonder why more don't do it. All you need to do is get a checking account as a "Doing business as" proprietorship (pick a cool name for it), and say you're from that business when making the call to order things. It's never failed me so far, and it helps keep my cost accounting separate. Your tax number is your SS, taxes are all rolled together with personal (which is usually an advantage if you itemize) - nothing magic here. But of course, you have to be enough of a social engineer, and act like you do this every day on the phone, or you raise suspicion, I'd guess. For example, don't brag about being the company owner - they don't make purchase calls, but use some grunt in the purchasing dept for that - so that's your persona on the phone, one of a grunt working for the outfit.

It seems some people are always running into trouble with that, and regulations and regulators - but some almost never have a problem. I suggest a change of approach/attitude for those people as being most effective in getting to where you want to go. I *know* to my core I'm legit, and doing nothing wrong, and it comes across convincingly - and naturally, since I believe it myself, so I don't have those problems.
Why guess when you can know? Measure!
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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

Doug, its not just about being a business. It's also about having a location they consider a place of business. My father-in-law is legitimately incorporated as a chemical supply consultant with a specialty in plating. He has done research with plating chemicals way, way nastier than D in his basement since the 60's. He has an address on Main Street in a small town, but when he tried to order a bottle of D for Mike, Sigma Aldrich originally took the order, but cancelled it a few days later saying that they had 'found out' his place of business was a residence.

Even Matheson, who I have had very friendly customer interactions with, will not by policy deliver to a residence. They also have very strict requirements about documentation, security, procedures, hazmat response, records retention, etc that you have to sign for. So, many potential fusors who want to do this at home will have to find ways around how gas suppliers do business today.

I know some folks already have good working relationships with gas suppliers where they can easily call for a bottle or walk in and get one, but trust me if a newbie amateur fusor wants to get a bottle directly from a gas or chemical supplier cold without deception, then they will have a tough go at it.
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Carl Willis
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by Carl Willis »

What I think we are seeing with these various outcomes in peoples' attempts to get deuterium is the effect of LOCAL interpretation of restrictive corporate policies. I think it has more to do with that than with some users being perceived as less qualified. As I've said before, I have a personal, cash-only account with Matheson, and my few discussions with people in the corporate office indicate my locally-crafted customer arrangement is probably unique.

Having letterhead, checks, and a business registration in your secretary of state's office might help create the sheen of respectability on a superficial level, but I happen to know it's insufficient to many chemical suppliers now. Cambridge Isotopes, for instance, wanted federal tax ID and a Dun and Bradstreet number as part of their background inquiry. Matheson's newest sales policy on "hazardous" gases actually asks the customer for SOPs and EOPs relating to chemical handling. Unfortunately, securing the supply chain for deuterium to "citizen scientists" will probably be an increasingly-difficult aspect of this hobby going forward.

-Carl
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Doug Coulter
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by Doug Coulter »

What Carl's saying is true in my own experience as well. I did have to create a lot of paperwork to get the D from Matheson. It happens I was employing a cop part-time - there's my security guy and plan, with a phone number and him ready to respond had they called (they didn't). My next door neighbor is a paramedic, which took care of that. I also happen to do electroplating, and have that track record for safely handling hazmat things (almost all of which are indeed far nastier than D, Cr2O3 comes to mind, as well as the cyanides). And my address has been doing business officially (as well as being where I live, luckily in a county without zoning) for decades, which can't hurt.

Therefore, I wasn't telling any lies when I told them I was a business location - it's true all the way, not just a paper chimera, I really AM a business location, as well as the place I live.

Which if you think about it, is actually true for almost everyone. I think attitude is key, still. If you work as a wage slave, you're still a business - just one that takes a cut in income and risk in exchange for a chimera of security and perhaps simpler tax papers (not much simpler, actually - and you're just paying your employer to do the fiddly parts instead). You provide your labor as a service, and get money in return - same as any "business that contracts services".

When I wrote software for a living, freelance - I did exactly the same thing but was my own "employer" -- though proprietorship and being a consultant meant I avoided the various disability and unemployment insurance taxes as well. Not much difference in fact, but depending on how you roll the paper - a lot to some people. I find the distinction meaningless - as the current situation with unemployment shows, you didn't really even get extra job security for taking that wage-slave job at lower pay than a consultant gets...you just depended on your outfits sales capabilities - same as me -- but lacked control over them due to how your employer was structured.

If the ship-to address is the problem, surely you have some friends who have a business that's "legitimate" no matter whose eyes are looking, and you could set up for delivery there...If you have no friends, well....I'd be addressing that one first.

I still have to believe (after decades of experience) that the impression one makes on the phone with the grunt on the other end has one heck of a lot to do with outcomes.
Why guess when you can know? Measure!
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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

...which is why you should make sure you buy enough for your anticipated needs when you do find a source. Buying restrictions will only get tighter in this country with our mentality. I agree with Carl that restrictions are part of overly conservative interpretations. An export restriction on deuterium in 10CFR has put the isotope in a category with suppliers well beyond that. Perhaps ignorance of the law is being intentionally compensated for by fail over.

I do recommend that the Matheson stipulations about SOPS and EOPS be used at some level any way. I expect that Mike will develop procedures for his fusor operations and that contingency actions for unexpected events are developed and understood ahead of time. We will be using the same safety procedures for electrical hazards and compressed gas handling that my station has at work. I would make them available here except they are proprietary to the company I work for. I also expect that each time fusor operations are conducted that a formal pre-job brief is conducted with all present. I think this is especially important for students and newbies like us.
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by jcs78227 »

Doug Coulter wrote:
> I have many books that refer to CP as "commercially pure" *not* "chemically pure" and in any case, it'd be the rare case to call 97% "reagent grade" except in special situations. Not to pick nits though.


Doug,

I didn't call 97% reagent grade, in fact I didn't call anything reagent grade. I wrote that CP is a reagent grade abbreviation, not "reagent grade" or an abbreviation for "reagent grade." There is a subtly that is difficult to convey when you lack the ability lend intonation to words. It was written to mean the D2 was a reagent and it has been given a grade according to a somewhat variable standard, which is why percentage purity is preferred. I think you took it to mean that I was saying CP was "Reagent Grade" which has to meet much higher standards, as you clearly know. Rather, I assumed it would be understood that what I meant was chemicals for synthesis, production, etc. (AKA reagents) can be given grades, and CP was one of them.

As for CP (or C.P.), I believe that most would accept either the Merck Index or the CRC Handbook of Chem. & Physics to be authoritative, even if they do not consider me to be. To verify I had not erred, I did my homework before posting the first time. Both references have CP (CRC) / C.P. (Merck) as the abbreviation for Chemically Pure.

-Jonathan
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by Chris Bradley »

The problem I have found more often here in UK is the 'account' effect, wherein many vendors expect you to sign up to a £multi,000 pa account.

One occasion I could not find a vendor of the high temp Apiezon vacuum wax here in UK for love nor [modest] money. It was available, but to buy it what I needed to do was to set up a business account with a distributor with a £5,000pa minimum spend!
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by vince_Darmancier »

any update on lecture bottle since 2011? someone mentioned advanced specialty gases but they refused to sell it to me back in 2008...
still no go today!
Andrew Seltzman
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by Andrew Seltzman »

I posted a writeup here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10336

You will have to have it shipped to a company or university, no one will ship to a residential address. Several members have had success having a welding supply store buy it and ship it to the store for pickup.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by Richard Hull »

My first bottle of D2 was purchased back in 1998 through the local Welders Supply. I prepaid them at the store, got a receipt and a week or so later was called to come pick it up. When I picked it up, they helped me identify the fitting I needed to mate the bottle to my gauge. They had it in stock.
Commercial purity is quite adequate.

Richard Hull
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The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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vince_Darmancier
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by vince_Darmancier »

Very helpful Andrew ! thank you so much!
I am going to try Matheson`s email today...will post on here with results Richard, but it might be a while..
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by Chris Mullins »

Unfortunately Matheson appears to have exited the online gas business. I bought a lecture bottle of regular hydrogen from them 18 months ago because they were half the price of the big companies AND would ship to a residential address. I tried to buy another bottle last month, only to find out that all their online gas pages are gone. I got this response from their customer service:

We no longer offer the Lecture Bottles on the online store. I apologize for the inconvenience.

Sigma Aldrich turned me down. A welder's supply store is my next stop.
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vince_Darmancier
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by vince_Darmancier »

same here...tried yesterday and got a request to sign up and open an account with my company...they did send me a quote...for 930 bucks!!!
ridiculous!
I want to try with Sigma through the lab i work at, but i am not sure my boss will go for it..
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Richard Hull
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by Richard Hull »

Gee whiz! I am glad I bought two 50 liter backup cylinders for $270 each when I retired in 2014.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Luke Harrill
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by Luke Harrill »

Airgas was a waste of time for me to visit.

Back in March I ordered a 50L bottle from Global Rare Gasses. They are SUPER friendly and I would totally reccommend them. 50L cost me about $260 plus $100 for hazmat. The bottle came with a CGA-350 connector on it.

A business address is a requirement though... I had mine shipped to a local rock climbing gym and waited around that morning to sign for it. Everything went smoothly with no problems.

-Luke Harrill
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Richard Hull
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by Richard Hull »

I am glad you found a work-around. I find it sad that deuterium is so hard to obtain at the amateur level. Sounds like anyone that is younger and whose dad works for a small company might arrange for it to be delivered there to the attention of his dad.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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vince_Darmancier
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Re: Deuterium Lecture bottle

Post by vince_Darmancier »

That is wonderful news Luke! i just sent them an email...
I do have a business address to ship to no problem, but will they take a credit card payment over the phone?
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