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Photon triggered Fusion

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:31 pm
by michaell
I would like to ask what do you think about this effort?
Can it be more efficient than fusion mediated by accelerated ions?

For example we have TiD2 target parallely with TiD2 ion source.
We will heat up the ion source to free some deuterium. Then these molecules/atoms will be irradiated with photons of energy 100keV.
Some of the photons should hit the atoms, ionize them and eventually make it atomic. It could also transfer some kinetic energy. This mean that ions can be accelerated towards the target.

Maybe just irradiation of the TiD2 sample could do the work, if we will heat it just little bit?

Will it work in that way?

Re: Photon triggered Fusion

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:06 pm
by Dennis P Brown
You need to read the FAQ's and understand what fusion is for a fusor. Getting 100 keV electrons, while not something routine for most amateurs, is trivial compared to a source for 100 keV photons. Also, best to understand the nomenclature used for energetic photons before posting.

Re: Photon triggered Fusion

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:15 pm
by michaell
Thanks, I will check the FAQ.
For me getting 100keV photons is very easy. You just need X-ray tube and a proper power supply and eventually a shielding. Or off the shelf device for this purpose.
I just dont want to say word "x-rays", since energetic photons could be also a gamma rays.

Re: Photon triggered Fusion

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:28 pm
by Dennis P Brown
Generating 100 keV x-rays is no easy task and so inefficient it is obviously a useless task considering that one gets far greater efficiency creating the 20-30 keV electrons needed to excite a deuterium gas for a fusor. Using that methodology (voltage) to excite electrons has the added benefit that it is far-and-away easier and cheaper for amateur's besides not creating an extreme radiation hazard. Of course, the fact that photons have an extremely poor interacting cross-section for deuterium gas is why no one would waste their time with such an effort. Hope that addresses your questions for that approach.

Re: Photon triggered Fusion

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:45 pm
by michaell
Thank you very much.
I am asking, because NASA released few papers where this phenomenon is utilized. And they are actually successfull so that in a few minutes there is clearly detectable radiation from produced tritium.
Yes, I know that X-ray production efficiency is very poor, usually just 1%.
But I can't agree with the fact, that producing photons is harder than ion source. Actually building fusor than x-ray source is by 90% more complicated in my opinion. You can build a vacuum tube in a very, very easy ways.
If you can build a fusor, you can build x-ray generator for sure.

Cross section for deuterium is poor, but there they are talking about hydrides with no release of deuterium.

Next thing is, that we are building these devices theoretically to get energy out of this. If this include producing heat from X-ray generation process, the heat is not wasted. It is just additional heat in the process which is beneficial if you want theoretically heat something.

Re: Photon triggered Fusion

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:00 pm
by Jeroen Vriesman
A free particle (e.g. D+) cannot absorb a photon, so the effect must be happening inside the D2 loaded Ti.
Irradiating free D2 or D+ with X-rays is probably not doing anything.

For a free particle momentum and energy cannot be conserved simultaneously for photon absorption, try it:
photon: E=hv
photon momentum: hv/c
particle energy: E^2=m^2c^4 + p^2c^2

If a particle has some internal structure (e.g. an atom with electrons) the photon can break up the particle and momentum and energy can be conserved at the same time. (e.g. ionizing Ar to Ar+ and e-).

Some "radiation pressure" does exists for free particles, but I don't know much details, and ionized particles can me accelerated by the E component of an EM wave (read something about particles being accelerated in a microwave resonator). And inside a material there are more interactions possible between photons and matter. Dissociation of D2 by photons is also possible.

so now we are left with the more philosophical problem "why can we accelerate particles with an E field if all EM fields are completely equivalent to exchanging photons, and a photon cannot exchange energy with a free particle..." ...interesting...

Re: Photon triggered Fusion

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:11 pm
by michaell
Thanks for the reply.
It would be interesting to compare pros and cons of this method with an ordinary fusion.
My instinct is telling me that the efficiency is not low at all since hydrogen is loaded in the lattice under a certain pressure.
Imagine that suddenly helium will occur in the lattice from DD reaction. Normally there is no way how to load it inside. This would increase pressure further and in my opinion possibly start some other reaction.
But as far as I know this area is not mapped with a current science at all.

That is why I am sad to see responses that it does not make any sense. If we would not try anything new, we could stay in the stone age.

Re: Photon triggered Fusion

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:56 pm
by Richard Hull
The bold "doer" would foil the naysayers with one single action. Do it yourself, prove yourself or the concept to be right and report back with a win along with sufficient and acceptable proof of having really done it. Otherwise, all the talk is just wind over the decks of the ever tossed ship of fusion that is really just con-fusion.

Richard Hull

Re: Photon triggered Fusion

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:04 pm
by Dennis P Brown
Michael, your last post has so many errors and problems I am concerned that you are wasting your's as well as everyone else's time with this thread. We are not here to correct numerous elementary errors of knowledge nor answer questions that either have information readily available or is based on your poorly understood physics - for instance, no one has or would attempt real energy fusion via x-rays; why? Because that is how hydrogen bombs extract energy. Besides being classified it is illegal research for anyone who is not cleared. A simple google search would have show how that process is used and why no one would use it to create energy.

That said, it is ok not to understand concepts - we are all limited - but your knowledge base needs more training in many areas of physics before you should speculate on viable fusion processes. If you do not want to learn, then as Richard says, build something and show your work. But blindly assuming results will not succeed here or in life. Don't get discourage but use this as a reason to learn facts - there is a lot out there to learn and having an interest is half the battle. Best of luck but until you can ask proper fact based questions, best to wait on such speculation. Rather, build a small deuterium gun - now that would be an excellent project, teach you about more advanced devices, and only needs a neon sign transformer, and simple vacuum pump to be purchased. Everything else can be home built.

Re: Photon triggered Fusion

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:19 am
by Rex Allers
Michael,
I can't see that you ever made a post in the "Introduce Yourself" section, which is a board requirement that should be done as your first post.

Also go to the Announcements and Admin section and read 'Fusor.Net Policies and Procedures. Number (2) is this introduce yourself rule. Number (1) covers using your full name. You do seem to have it in the Real Name field, which is good, but you should really go into your profile and change your login name to your full name. Doing so will change your login name but leave your password. It will also associate your new name with your previous posts.

Posting in the New User Chat section also might be a good place for speculations that seem pretty far from a fully formed science-based concept.