Hot fusion idea

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nio247
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Hot fusion idea

Post by nio247 »

Hello. I would first of all say I am rather uneducated on the matter of fusion, but please consider this idea and don't be too picky. At first I suggest you read the "short" version, and if you don't believe it would work, then read the long version.

1)Let's imagine we have a steel Sphere, filled with our favorite hydrogen.

2)The following phenomenon should be possible:
Short version: As a spherical sound wave converges to a diameter comparable to it's wavelength, the peak pressure of the wave would have risen by many orders of magnitude.

Long version: If we are able to produce a perfectly spherical sound wave originating from the surface of the sphere and travelling towards it's center, then we should observe rise in the amplitude of the wave (that is, pressure) as it's radius decreases. We should get something like pressure = k / r^2. The pressure generated by such a wave as it's wavefront closes down in a single point should be many orders of magnitude greater than the pressure that needed to be applied to the surface of the steel sphere in order to create such a wave. The "point" pressure would however be limited by radius to which the wave can, um, condense. I doubt the pressure generated by such a wave could increase after the radius reaches the wavelength. Still, it should be many orders higher as it is.
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Why would this phenomenon work: basically, a perfect geometrical arrangement would mean that the sound wave lets the force of many actuators/solenoids (or whatever was used to create them) exert their force over effectively a microscopic surface, thus creating a huge pressure.

3) Based on your prefered size of the Sphere, and your choice of sound wave generating system (array of solenoids?), which, critically, has to be extremely precise in both timing and construction, you calculate the pressure and temperature (i.e. base average energy for hydrogen inside) so that after the Phenomenon, a "small" group of atoms at the focus (i.e. center) would mostly fuse together out of sheer pressure/temperature generated at that point for a moment.

4) This group of atoms that have fused would release some energy, and the surrounding layer of atoms would absorb it. Adjust the base pressure so that when that happens, the released energy is enough to keep the reaction self-sustaining, due to each layer of hydrogen atoms fusing and releasing the energy to excite the next layer.

5) You should have litterally an explosion of pressure and heat. It can probably be collected through very simple mechanical means.


Bad news:
1) Sound wave system would be difficult to set up. It requires extreme precision, as a malformed or ill-timed wavefront would not converge to a point, but instead cause some random shapeless disturbance, while the pressure accumulated at the center would be much less, both because none/not all of the wave converged in the center, and/or it happened over longer time than necessary.

2) It's an explosion are you crazy?!

3) Not a continious power output. Quite the opposite.

Good news:
1)Base pressure rise during part 3 can be completely discarded if the sound system is set up right.
I.e. PROBABLY very low initial energy input, compared to other types of fusors.

2) Duration vs. intensity of the power output moment can be also regulated by adjusting base pressure.

3) Doesn't involve strong magnetic fields and high voltages everywhere.
Chris Trent
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by Chris Trent »

One simple problem.

The ideal gas law, which describes the relationship between density, pressure, and temperature of a gas, and which is also serves as part of the basis of wave propagation calculations in gas, becomes less and less accurate at high pressure.

Essentially: Once molecular attraction comes into play, all bets are off... and you haven't even gotten close to atomic forces yet.
Joe Scherrer
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by Joe Scherrer »

This has already been thought of, and it works on a very small scale. Do a literature search and see what comes up.
http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2 ... save-world
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by Chris Bradley »

>"Nikita wrote:"
You had best post a 'real' introduction to yourself and your intent here, else someone will give you an electronic dressing-down for not reading the sign-on requirements.



Nikita wrote:
> Hello. I would first of all say I am rather uneducated on the matter of fusion, but please consider this idea and don't be too picky.
Why not? What's your point in posting if you don't want to countenance picky-ness? Is this the "Panda"-technique; "eats shoots and leaves". Are you here to learn or discuss something, or are you a one-post-wonder to show us how clever you are even though you admit to being uneducated about fusion?



> 1)Let's imagine we have a steel Sphere, filled with our favorite hydrogen.
> 2)The following phenomenon should be possible:
> Short version: As a spherical sound wave converges to a diameter comparable to it's wavelength, the peak pressure of the wave would have risen by many orders of magnitude.
Disregarding the various annoying details, like you being uneducated about fusion, compressing a fusion fuel has been the only way to date of making net energy from fusion. Unfortunately, the only way so far found of generating that compressive energy is by a fission bomb being detonated around a fusion core, a so-called 'H-bomb'.

The other current attempts are, as mentioned, General Fusion [recent patent rejection]. Also, NIF that uses 180 MJ worth of laser energy from 192 pulsed lasers and promised Congress last year they'd be performing meaningful fusion energy experiments by now, after spending quadrillions [of just about any measurable quantity] on the 'experiment'. One past attempt, called 'sonofusion' aims to create neutron-induced bubbles in a superheated deuterium fluid, and as the bubble collapses, the idea is that fusion occurs therein.



> Bad news:
> 1) Sound wave system would be difficult to set up. It requires extreme precision, as a malformed or ill-timed wavefront would not converge to a point, but instead cause some random shapeless disturbance, while the pressure accumulated at the center would be much less, both because none/not all of the wave converged in the center, and/or it happened over longer time than necessary.
See failures, to date, of NIF and General Fusion, as above.

> 2) It's an explosion are you crazy?!
See "H-bomb", as above.

> 3) Not a continious power output. Quite the opposite.
See "H-bomb", as above.



> Good news:
> 1)Base pressure rise during part 3 can be completely discarded if the sound system is set up right.
> I.e. PROBABLY very low initial energy input, compared to other types of fusors.
See "fission bomb", as above

Now we've covered your idea in the various forms it has already been attempted, please introduce yourself in the correct forum.
David Geer
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by David Geer »

Also, the sonofusion has already been proven as a failure in experimentation and Nikita, you need to rename your account to have your full name displayed just like everyone else. It's in the rules and needs to be followed.
- David Geer
Chris Trent
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by Chris Trent »

I've already done the research, and am aware of the work at General Fusion. They are using pistons to compress plasma.

There are others using magnetic fields to do the same, as well as electrostatic fields, resonance, pinch effects, etc...

All of the above use plasma as the operating medium, not hydrogen gas.
stefan.kuzminski
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by stefan.kuzminski »

Hi,

>> 1) Sound wave system would be difficult to set up. It requires extreme precision, as a malformed or ill-timed wavefront would not converge to a point, but instead cause some random shapeless disturbance, while the pressure accumulated at the center would be much less, both because none/not all of the wave converged in the center, and/or it happened over longer time than necessary.

>See failures, to date, of NIF and General Fusion, as above.


I was wondering if you are referring to any specific information as to these failures, esp General Fusion. They appear to have closed some first round funding and to be working on it but I do not think they have published any results. Failures are interesting.

thanks!
Stefan
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by Chris Bradley »

Stefan Kuzminski wrote:
> I was wondering if you are referring to any specific information as to these failures, esp General Fusion.
I was speaking mainly of the failure to get a patent, in this case. In fact, this is the 5th patent in 5 years that has been rejected. No evidence that it will work has been presented to the examiners. The examiners keep rejecting due to lack of enablement, but Mr Laberge keeps sending patent applications in all the same, still with the same 'theories'. Maybe a few neutrons to show, but nothing evidently scalable (yet?).

Failures of NIF?....Plenty of history to read up on there... I am sure it is a success in *someone's* eyes!......
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Carl Willis
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by Carl Willis »

>Also, the sonofusion has already been proven as a failure

Sonofusion "proven" a failure? How and when? (I'm NOT inviting a redux of the Taleyarkhan misconduct scandal, but rather interested in seeing something conclusive about the concept itself, which as far as I know remains a studied subject with a mainstream theoretical basis).

Nikita's armchair idea is about as good as anyone else's armchair idea:

Meh.

People just have to get it through their wigs that raw ideas are not in short supply; they're actually a-dime-a-dozen and seldom distinguished on account of sheer abundance. What would be interesting, but is exceedingly rare in our ideas department, is a WELL-DEVELOPED idea--one that deals in specifics, has a communicated underpinning in sound physical theory, and is testable on the amateur laboratory scale.

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stefan.kuzminski
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by stefan.kuzminski »

I agree that probably most everyone on the NIF payroll can point to specific successes..

In the acoustic design ( specifically the General Fusion but also the original post on this thread ), how is the plasma target protected from being quenched by material carrying the shock wave?

thx,
S
David Geer
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by David Geer »

The centrifugal/centripetal forces create a hollow core space in which the plasma target is projected. But so far, based on all the tests, no true net gain has been observed and is thus, a failure. All are interesting and unique designs but nothing sufficient to be called an actual success, as of yet. In regards to NIF, that's not sonofusion but directed energy (laser) fusion.

From what I can tell, the only successful net gain reactor will be a hybridized system that best recreates the solar environment.
- David Geer
stefan.kuzminski
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by stefan.kuzminski »

So the plasmoid target is a stationary FRC in a hollow space in the center of the sphere. The shock wave is initiated on the surface of the sphere and travels toward the center through the medium ( i.e. liquid Pb/Li ) but to compress the target the hollow core must collapse and have the liquid Pb/Li touch the plasmoid? I did not find the patent application online.

Not getting a patent will make it harder for them to raise capital. Seems like there are other patented fusion reactor designs where the patent was granted with a prototype but not such a high bar ( i.e. Tri-alpha's, Bussard ).

thx,
S
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by Chris Bradley »

The US patent application numbers are;

20100163130
20060198487
20060198486
20060198483
20050129161

All have been rejected.

The latest one has not yet been abandoned and current status is 'non-final rejection'.

Patent offices are no longer granting applications that claim fusion energy, because it is fairly evident that no-one's been very successful at that, so the argument is that without a demonstration of enablement [viz. a working example] then it won't be granted.

It is worth noting perhaps, then, that the last 'Tri-Alpha' (Rostoker) application has also been rejected, along with a number of others.

For more info on General Fusion, there is a page of references to pdf papers on their website.
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by Chris Bradley »

For the interest of folks here, I did notice *only* a month or two ago a Taleyarkhan patent application that has been peacefully working its way through the USPTO system for a couple of years, whilst its author has been struggling with the world outside. It was published as a publically accessible application on 7th October 2010.

So there is, now, currently a non-final rejection on the application.

...and guess what... Taleyarkhan has responded with some amendments and requesting some more time!!

This body is still a 'kicker' and not quite ready for the morgue of patent hopefuls just yet.

As far as I read, in the 'popular' scientific press, that Taleyarkhan was picked up on some poor neutron metrology and some other poorly explained phenomenology that showed he hadn't been entirely scientifically rigorous. Sounds to me just like many fusioneers here, who get ahead of themselves with a feeling that they have achieved some success and then a few 'issues' pop up....but, still, nonetheless turn out well-founded evidence of neutron emissions soon enough.
stefan.kuzminski
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by stefan.kuzminski »

thanks for the information.

S
Jeroen Vriesman
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by Jeroen Vriesman »

This exists, some people are experimenting with a bubble of deuterium-tritium gas in liquid lead inside a big ball with pistons everywhere on the outside creating the shockwave.

Don't know the name of the company.
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by Chris Bradley »

FYI: I have just spotted that two new General Fusion patents have hit the patent journals.

It looks like the patent US20100163130 is getting no further attention, following a non-final rejection in October.

Two new patents have appeared, dated 3rd Feb '11;
US20110026657 SYSTEMS AND METHODS FOR COMPRESSING PLASMA
US20110026658 SYSTEMS AND METHODS FOR PLASMA COMPRESSION WITH RECYCLING OF PROJECTILES
Dan Tibbets
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by Dan Tibbets »

The piston approach is General Fusion as mentioned above.

I do not believe that the NIF laser approach is a direct laser heating of the fuel. Like a bomb it is an implosion device. The lasers heat up the Horbholium (sp?), which heats and compresses the contained fusion fuel pellet.

Gases are sometimes the starting fuel state, not necessarily plasma. A prime example is the Dense Plasma Focus approach.

And finally, I have not seen POPS mentioned in this thread. This involves manipulation of the plasma to create variations in densities, ie: waves- I'm not sure if they are propagating waves or standing waves, and understand little else about the physics, but on the surface at least, it seems this might fit the bill.

For that matter, it is still unknown (by the public) if POPS actually helps. The only information was an intermediate report from the late 1990's. Not a peep since (some of the published reports as late as ~2002 mentioned this data, but no followup reported.

Dan Tibbets
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by David Geer »

Dan... You went through a long discussion on POPS through 2010 with Chris Bradley, Richard Hester, Richard Hull and others just to name a few. Hasn't really been discussed in this forum but has in the others.


-David Geer
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Hot fusion idea

Post by Chris Bradley »

Chris Bradley wrote:
> For the interest of folks here, I did notice *only* a month or two ago a Taleyarkhan patent application that has been peacefully working its way through the USPTO system for a couple of years, whilst its author has been struggling with the world outside. It was published as a publically accessible application on 7th October 2010.

Just to update this, if anyone is interested, or comes here looking; the Taleyarkhan patent application, US20100254500, got a final rejection on 14th February 2011. The rejection note from the examiner explains that, in general terms, it was rejected on lack of enablement (he doesn't describe in sufficient depth how to perform his claims) but also that certain material has not been allowed because it is new material but was submitted after the original application date. In other words, Taleyarkhan has got more to add to his original patent application... so maybe he'll come back with a new application....?
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